tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-80905308002661513762024-03-12T16:57:37.273-07:00Mad Science WriterPromoting science and critical thinking, ogling at oddities, and combating scam artists, anti-intellectuals, and people who are Wrong On The Internet.Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.comBlogger140125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-61748451809515425082016-09-16T19:30:00.000-07:002016-09-24T20:50:19.822-07:00...And whatever did happen with my phone and computer?Bottom line: Computer = Still Broken. Phone = Discovered It Had Been Destroyed, So Had To Replace. There's a little more to it than that, if you care to look...<br />
<br />
<a name='more'></a><br />
So, as I've written before, just when I was able to stand in front of my computer in late April, and finally got back to writing, my Toshiba laptop gave out. I'm still trying to order parts for it, am $250 down, and still don't have anything to show for it. I sent the malfunctioning motherboard back, and was never able to get a replacement or refund.<br />
` I'm still borrowing this inferior non-Linux machine that is incompatible with my hard drive, and is not physically quite as large as I need for pain-related reasons, so I am making videos and comics and doing things I don't normally do in lieu of having a podcast to edit, go fig. It hurts too much to write for long periods of time on this computer, so I haven't been up to causing myself pain by doing that to myself, hence lack of blog posts.<br />
<br />
As for the Samsung S6, which is a real phone with a removable battery, that I bought to replace the iPhone. The camera wasn't as good because it doesn't immediately take photos, but if it ever locked up or needed to be reset or have the battery replaced, I could do it in a few seconds. The iPhone, on the other hand, is like a car with the hood welded shut, so if it ever locks up you have to wait 7 hours before it runs out of juice before it can be reset. I couldn't wait to take this new phone to my next skeptic's conference, but it was never to be.<br />
` In December, I actually had 21 tabs open on this phone, all articles about psychedelics that people had sent me over text messages, but that I had never looked at because I was in too much pain to make my eyes and the screen meet and stay there for more than 10 seconds at a time. I was going to write/record about the things in these articles, in the same way that other podcasters take a look at other science news.<br />
` So, I was finally going to do it, I was going to read these articles, and I was drawing up a plan of how to read through all of them and keep track... and then, I couldn't because the screen was mysteriously destroyed!<br />
<br />
All I know is, I was with a particular individual and I had an item for him in the same pocket as my phone. But I forgot about the item. We went to a movie together and at one point he sat on my coat, and I had to pull it out from under him, but I didn't check to make sure whether my phone was okay.<br />
` Afterwards I was reluctant to let him give me a big bear hug because I was wearing this coat with high pockets, and I knew he would just mash that phone into the stuff in my pockets, but wasn't able to think long enough to say anything, it was just an automatic behavior.<br />
` Now I finally remembered to give him the item, then afterward I looked at my phone and found the screen was cracked, like they were pressed together really hard.<br />
<br />
He offered to fix it, and part of me said, "Good, because he probably is the one who broke it," but I didn't want to sound whiny, so I didn't tell him. In fact, I took this phone to a professional repair place, but they told me to buy a new phone instead of fix it. I couldn't find a new phone that had a removable battery, so took him up on his offer after all. He even gave me his old smartphone to use, although I couldn't do all the things on it as the other phone.<br />
<br />
In May, just before the Northeast Conference for Science and Skepticism he eventually did swap out the screen that I bought, but left the plastic wrap on. When he first gave it back to me, the touch screen worked, and he said it was fine, it seemed to be. But later on, when I went to swap out the SIM card and get back to my open tabs, it didn't work at all, maybe because it had cooled and was no longer pliable.<br />
<br />
So, determined that he should still pay for damaging my phone in the first place, even though I paid for the screen, I gave him the phone back to try again. After some time, he got fired from his job, and told me that he should have time to fix my phone now that he wasn't killing himself on night shift. So I kept bugging him about it for a couple months. And then he told me he was having technical difficulties.<br />
<br />
I was picturing him and my phone and the little screwdrivers we let him borrow to fix it, and something not working right, so I kept asking what needed to happen. Finally, on the 12th, he tells me that when he was fired from his job, it was on lunch break, and he wasn't allowed to go back to his desk to get his things. My Samsung S6 was in his desk, but he didn't seem to remember that clearly at the time, and took him this long to figure it out.<br />
<br />
So, he agreed to let me swap the phone he was letting me borrow for his S6, which is all scratched to hell, but another individual was able to find me a carrier with a better deal and a better phone, also with a removable battery, called the LG G5. Yes, it has an even bigger screen, and it's more powerful, so I finally have a chance to get back to my months-long near-absence on Facebook and Messenger.<br />
<br />
I've got a working phone now, although it doesn't have my old stuff on it, I have no idea how much was lost with the old phone. Now what I need to deal with is the pain-sleep cycle, and getting ahead on cracking down on pain.Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com10tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-78129119344923386282016-08-29T16:58:00.000-07:002016-09-24T17:02:31.928-07:00My first YouTube Video! Success!Not wanting to bother with editing for my first video, I decided to do it all in one shot. Enjoy!<br />
<br />
<iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jo-13iCHhgw" width="560"></iframe>
<br />
Next time, I'll be writing with both hands at once. I'm not sure how popular that was on Facebook, but I bet it'll be more popular with YouTube if I do it in several of my vids!Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-1350943639094849002016-08-03T14:22:00.000-07:002016-08-06T02:55:51.805-07:00My first break from two decades of chronic pain, and other exciting news!<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; text-align: right;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3ju0y6-ye5AJSB7FGoGm1m3DhGhwZogVDcAhuNafpp2u8MRT3UbM0CjoDbydPuxAzv5GYiqAhw1iGASqyyGnKXq16yBFK0i2XgvH7fVvnNjsWtzkOZ5SKGNyMXt6FpLFRBIDATq8tC5U/s1600/LG+292.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3ju0y6-ye5AJSB7FGoGm1m3DhGhwZogVDcAhuNafpp2u8MRT3UbM0CjoDbydPuxAzv5GYiqAhw1iGASqyyGnKXq16yBFK0i2XgvH7fVvnNjsWtzkOZ5SKGNyMXt6FpLFRBIDATq8tC5U/s400/LG+292.jpg" width="300" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">The middle panel is a proto-human orgy!</td></tr>
</tbody></table>
I'm feeling so well, I'm able to stay standing at the shelf for hours at a time, working on a project while blessed by Ganesha, Shiva, and Vishnu!<br />
<br />
As I've mentioned here and there on this blog, I've been disabled and in chronic pain since 1995, thanks to a lot of horror and abuse and then people making fun of me and telling me that I'm only pretending to be disabled and in pain.<br />
Now, thanks to a few years of physical therapy, which I've been doing thanks to Dr. Hypno (not to mention frequent use of small doses of SARMs), my body is close to being recovered. Most of the strain is gone, I rarely have problems eating or breathing, but my body is still asymmetrical.<br />
My left foot will never be the same, though it's coming along as well and the skin between my toes is becoming less like rawhide. Even so, my doctor was amazed at how thick the skin is and how impervious it is to pain when she blasted the living daylights out of it when freezing the warts.<br />
<br />
So, what triggered the complete relief of pain? Well, not long ago, I was dealing with not only chronic pain, but the kind of pain that women typically deal with on a regular basis, and just couldn't handle it so well. I noticed that eating 20 mg of CBD edibles resulted in all of the pain out to my wrists and ankles more or less disappearing. It took an hour or so to kick in, though.<br />
A couple days later, I went back to the weed store and got something that works faster, Wonderland Enchantmint Cheshire Cat CBD sublingual breath spray. I was feeling much better to begin with, but I noticed that a few spritzes and some indica weed and ibuprofen had a similar effect, and it started more or less right away. The pain was gone, except in my hands and feet.<br />
The next morning, my pain levels were still relatively low. I had some more indica and ibuprofen and several spritzes, and before I knew it, all of the pain was gone, even in my neck, earlobes, and my fingertips, which had been hurting for various numbers of years. I was amazed that buttoning my shirt didn't feel like pressing on a bruise.<br />
<br />
Once all this pain was disrupted, this was on July 26, it just hasn't come back as bad! HOLY RUSTED SALAD GREENS, BATMAN!<br />
<br />
Why didn't I figure this out before? Well, I knew it would probably work at high doses, but I wasn't so sure it would affect me without inducing couch lock, and I would probably use them up quickly. Well, not only have I been more energetic than ever, I used up that entire 60-spritz bottle in about four days.<br />
Then, I got a FairWinds high CBD Citrus tincture, comes in a dropper bottle, it's about the same price but twice as strong. That bottle lasted me until today, when I used up the very last of it this morning. It's lucky that I went to the store yesterday and picked up the last bottle they had!<br />
<br />
So, the weight of chronic pain has been lifted, it's so much easier to move! And speaking of, the nerve damage in my upper lip is almost healed, especially on the right side. I can hardly believe how far it's come over the years, but I think I may make a full recovery, or at least close enough!<br />
<br />
I am now borrowing a different laptop (one that is not compatible with my backup drive, alas) and wrote a really great little article (all while standing on a platform with a rubber mat). I decided to wait until this morning to look it over before publishing it. And then, when I took the laptop out of sleep mode, Windows Update occurred.<br />
I figured it would be OK, since I saved my work on WordPad. But to my astonishment, I opened 'recent documents' only to find one item, and it for was a blog post written by the laptop's owner. The file that I had saved (allegedly) was nowhere to be found on the hard drive.<br />
<br />
I completely don't understand this.<br />
<br />
In any case, the other project I've been working on is a comic book, which I plan to have ready for <a href="http://csiconference.org/">CSI-Con Las Vegas</a> (it's like The Amazing Meeting, but in October). So, if I'm not writing the most, it's because I'm spending so much time standing at the shelf with Ganesha and Shiva and Vishnu and Dead Jesus, who are blessing my work.<br />
<br />
Before CSI Con, I hope to get my phone back, and the replacement motherboard for the replacement motherboard.<br />
<br />
Until I get all that straightened out, I won't be able to get my podcast Skeptophany up and rolling. Instead, I shall do a video. And that video will be on my new blog, the one that will have Skeptophany when that comes around! Yes!Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-66381709255781662932016-06-20T13:11:00.002-07:002016-06-20T21:15:03.052-07:00Recovering since NECSS...<style type="text/css">p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; }a:link { }</style>
I'm still coughing up phlegm from the infection I got at NECSS,
which was over a month ago. Yes, I got to go to New York and talk to some cool people and see some cool talks and shows! I finally even got say to Bill Nye about how it's me who's been saying "Muahahaha" after he says "Change the World!", and we even had a back-and-forth during his talk where we did that!<br />
<br />
I am able to access the data on my backup drive, using Linux, so
my podcast is still 'there'. The linux machine I am borrowing is large enough so I don't have to kill myself hunching over and giving myself a migraine, and will allow me to access unfinished drafts of my blog.<br />
<br />
However, it won't allow me to install Audacity so that I can continue working on my podcast and finish episodes and all that. It's because laptop's person can't remember the admin password, and trying to change the password by going into recovery mode and using the shell prompt box also doesn't work because it won't allow me to type characters into the prompt box!<br />
<br />
As for my laptop, I finally got a new motherboard, but the video
portion doesn't work, so I'm going to have to send it back. It's been broken since the end of April, when I was finally feeling well enough to stand at it for long periods of time and just write massively, which apparently caused it to blow out in the sweltering heat at 4 a.m.<br />
<br />
And me, I'm feeling considerably less pain than I remember feeling in a couple of
decades. Things are good, and I'm able to do almost as much physical
therapy as I was doing for a while. I'm about to go run stairs, which
I haven't done in ages.<br />
<br />
All in all, NECSS was fun and really important to my
self-knowledge, which I'll get into later. I've been pretty sick and
physically miserable since then, though, but am finally feeling well enough to
stand in front of my computer for longer and longer periods of time.
Well, gotta run! Up, then down, then up...Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-54895915637934161802016-05-11T21:52:00.000-07:002016-05-12T02:09:04.899-07:00Technical difficulties and NECSSUPDATE: Holy shit! I can't even access any of my podcast data, even on my backup drive! I hope my hard drive is still OK, this is really crazy, all of this happening at once. <br />
<br />
I've spent the past several months in great pain and agony and have been pushing myself beyond my limits just to get enough physical therapy to make progress. I explain about that on my podcast. No sooner did I begin to recover, and was able to spend more time out of bed, standing because I can't really sit, than I decided to finish the first three episodes of my podcast.<br />
<br />
So, I put a rubber mat on the floor to stand on, got to work and... after seven years of service, the motherboard fried. Thank goodness for backup drives, I still have my raw material, so can, well, do it again. UPDATE: I may not. WHAT?!<br />
<br />
This laptop that I'm borrowing is so slow that it cannot even access all those blog posts that I tried to sit down and write and found myself in crippling pain and had to stop. I didn't finish those posts, partly because of the debilitating pain when sitting down, but this laptop can't even access those drafts, so there's no way I can ever finish them unless I get a new machine! So, not much blogging can get done now.<br />
<br />
The only reason I can make this post is because you don't have to access drafts in order to make a new post.<br />
<br />
I can't type a whole sentence without craning my neck
down, this is so painful. I'm going to record some more for my podcast,
Skeptophany, while at NECSS, but when you get to hear any of that stuff depends on when I can buy a new machine. (Oh great... I may have to start over again, not to mention all the blog posts and stuff that I've been writing on my laptop.)<br />
<br />
This smaller laptop is so painful on my wrists and I can't bend my neck down enough to look at the screen, so I'm typing this completely blind. There is no way in hell I can do anything on this machine, it's too slow, and I can't even look at the screen while I'm typing. I can't edit podcasts without some kind of mirror-contraption, assuming this machine is capable of running Audacity. Also, it's really hurting my arms and shoulders just to type on this laptop, I can't rest my hands on it like I did my huge laptop.<br />
<br />
I have to get down on my knees on the rubber mat just to read this. Now I'm typing blind again. My Samsung phone's screen broke, I have my ideas about how that could have happened, and this was last December. The screen has now been replaced, but there is plastic wrap inside of the screen, so it doesn't work anyway. Well, whenever that gets fixed, I'll be able to get back on Facebook.<br />
<br />
Also, my iPod died yesterday just after the laptop. You know, because I wanted to back up the stuff that's on it, and then dropped it.<br />
<br />
<br />
All I can say is, NECSS is probably the thing I need. Hopefully I can stay out of the pain/lack of sleep/increased pain cycle while I am there, and then figure out if I can fix my laptop or get another.<br />
<br />
Anyway, I'm going to bed now, I'm developing a migraine/tendonitis just from typing this. I won't be using this machine again.Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-13212570124282853802016-02-19T00:36:00.000-08:002016-02-22T02:46:52.979-08:00Of Mulder, Mushrooms, and Mad Science WritingWhy do I call this blog 'Mad Science Writer'? I can tell you that it <i>does not</i> have anything to do with all this exploration of the inner worlds I keep going on about.<br />
` On January 1, 2012, when I published the first post, I didn't know much about hypnosis beyond what I learned in college, and nothing about psychedelics other than people telling me of their experiences. At the time, I did not see any reason to learn more about either of these subjects.<br />
<br />
A previous satirical blog of mine, <i>Introspection of a Struggling Mad Science Writer</i>, is the actual origin of this blog's title. I really, honestly had no idea it would turn out the way it did.<br />
` At the time, I was too afraid to be controversial, often chasing low-hanging fruit and the same sort of subjects normally criticized in the mainstream Skeptic community.<br />
` But, as time has gone on I've decided, to hell with that, my plan is to push the Overton Window! And if everything in my life goes right, someday I'll have to wear a bulletproof vest, just like David Silverman!<br />
<br />
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<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi8HPVudJjMWFiZ6Yxyy_kMdPwLbbygwfdSydPemyspHTuL8imM4QLWM64HaOEp0wFaHvfF6SvxP26nAr-s04YUOzASTJPJ4PqRool8L6aBwXUhyphenhyphenzFL6RYM-w9zTB5xa_O7e_5XS2cHaXs/s1600/Spoony+%2526+David+Silverman.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" height="532" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi8HPVudJjMWFiZ6Yxyy_kMdPwLbbygwfdSydPemyspHTuL8imM4QLWM64HaOEp0wFaHvfF6SvxP26nAr-s04YUOzASTJPJ4PqRool8L6aBwXUhyphenhyphenzFL6RYM-w9zTB5xa_O7e_5XS2cHaXs/s640/Spoony+%2526+David+Silverman.jpg" width="640" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><b>I figure that his strategies of making non-religious people seem more acceptable, and destroying the religious memes that poison our culture would work for other causes as well. That's right, this man has given me ideas. Be afraid.</b></td><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><br /></td></tr>
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And if that isn't enough, I'm branching out into podcasting, so I'll be infesting people's ears next! I vow to understand the software well enough to get my first three episodes of Skeptophony online by April! And if I'm really ambitious, I'll do even more than that!<br />
<br />
In the meantime, I'll keep writing about stuff. And even back-posting all those drafts I never finished because I've had problems sleeping. It's been rough.<br />
` But since
I've had a regular mattress and not been sinking into memory foam hell,
and my third year of physical rehab is seeing me now in sight of normal
physical abilities, and an utter lack of pain, I'm feeling up to getting some writing done now. So I am!<br />
<br />
There are many topics on my mind, but for now will only mention that my mom texted me the other day that she was watching the newest episode of the X-Files (reboot) where Mulder takes psilocybin mushrooms. As though by magic, I was able to find this episode and watch it for myself the very next day.<br />
` Having never seen this iteration of the series, I thought the bantering between Scully and Mulder was adorable, as well as with the two new characters Einstein and Miller. Some parts I thought really worked, but the whole 'mushroom trip' thing, well, that kind of ruined the episode for me.<br />
<br />
Basically, they need some information from this exploded guy who's in a coma, so Mulder's harebrained scheme is to take psilocybin capsules in order to somehow reach his mind. As the episode revealed, the scriptwriters didn't seem to know jack about what psychedelics actually do.<br />
<br />
Here are my reactions to what I saw on the screen -- Spoilers!<br />
<br />
<a name='more'></a>A few minutes later, Mulder walks out of the hospital and into some Texas line dance, puts on a cowboy hat, goes completely bedonka-donk and essentially makes a drunken ass out of himself.<br />
<br />
Sitting among stacks of psychedelic literature, I ask myself, "What does this have to do with mushrooms?" Zero. Either that, or the scriptwriters thought that psychedelic visuals look exactly like gratuitous rhinestone-studded T&A.<br />
<br />
Then, Mulder passes out and has a vision of being on a boat, apparently on its way across the River Styx, which is where the action happens. This scene, however, doesn't have any sort of psychedelic 'feel' to it, it's more like a dream.<br />
<br />
Some time later, Mulder wakes up in a hospital bed. Nothing psychedelic whatsoever has been depicted. I thought to myself, <i>Mulder has been cheated!</i><br />
<br />
Then, we learn that the capsules that Mulder has swallowed were merely niacin, an active placebo. His entire trip was not drug-induced at all, but rather the power of suggestion and his will to believe.<br />
` Surely that could not induce something so strange as a psychedelic trip, especially of several hours, and I would add that it would not be enough to induce a fake psychedelic trip, either.<br />
<br />
In any case, I suggest that any scriptwriters out there who are trying to write something to seem psychedelic, it <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/12/psychedelics-intoxicants-cultural.html">wouldn't hurt to learn something about it first</a>.<br />
<br />
As for me, it's been busy, and I need to get some sleep. Since the beginning of the month I have barely been keeping up with things I normally do every day, like piano practice.<br />
` That's a sign I haven't been able to recharge my brain and body sufficiently, although
the past couple of days it's just because I've been so busy.<br />
<br />
I finally
am starting to recover. Hopefully soon I'll be back on track. Expect more posts to magically appear soon!Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-84506056915713194332015-12-02T02:51:00.000-08:002015-12-15T03:13:59.194-08:00"Spiritual" experiences versus delusional thinking: Not the same thing!While I've met quite a few people of atheistic and/or skeptic bent, who show enthusiasm toward transcendent experiences and even psychedelic drugs, most seem to show a casual interest if any at all.<br />
` On the extreme other end of the spectrum, I've met those who seem to think themselves "above" subjecting themselves to such experiences for themselves.<br />
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<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Particularly the ones that promise a truly spectacular adventure.</td></tr>
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One activist for skepticism and against quackery and religious dogma, outright told me that practicing meditation is a form of "brainwashing".<br />
` I tried
to tell him that it is actually an exercise that helps you to control your ability
to focus and stop tripping out about so much stuff. It helps decrease stress levels, and thus seems to be good for your health.<br />
` Though increased scientific study is beginning to scrape the surface of such altered states, he
didn't want to hear about it.<br />
<br />
The need to experience zen consciousness, egolessness, transcendence, or whatever you want to call it, is not in any way the same as the need to believe in a supernatural world. Unfortunately, I have noticed that it is common for those of skeptical leanings to confuse the two concepts.<br />
<br />
Considering what I've been studying for the past few years, I'm convinced that so-called transcendental or 'spiritual' states are among the most important and life-impacting states of consciousness that one can achieve.<br />
` As I hope to have shown <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2015-01-01T17:53:00-08:00&max-results=7&start=7&by-date=false">in previous blog posts,</a> a solid argument can be made that those who don't believe in
supernatural or spiritual realms really do crave so-called
"transcendence" when they say they don't; it's just that they don't
understand what this term refers to.<br />
<br />
What is this with
the apparent conflation between the desire for transcendent consciousness and the desire to believe? In an email to a number of skeptical activists (none of them Geo), I included the following quotations and points of consideration:<br />
<br />
<a name='more'></a>Neuroscientist and major opponent to faith and superstition Sam Harris wrote a book about the importance of these experiences. It's called Waking Up, as is his podcast. <br />
` One point he makes is that the self is just an illusion, and that transcendence (especially with the use of psychedelic drugs) allows you to perceive this clearly. Your self, and your social matrix, and meaning, are all made up by your brain.<br />
` Because your consciousness is released from the usual human and individual biases, transcendent experiences are a more accurate way of seeing the world.<br />
<br />
It is more desirable to see the world more accurately, is it not?<br />
<br />
On his podcast, someone asks: "I'm wondering how your fellow atheists react when they discover you've embraced something called spirituality, do they think you've gone to the other side?" Harris responds:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
"Well some of them probably do. It's inconvenient that atheism selects preferentially for people who haven't had these kind of experiences and haven't been interested in them. There's a disproportionate number of people who have never wanted to learn how to meditate, or never taken psychedelics, or never touched what they would call an altered state of consciousness, and see no good reason to try." </blockquote>
And why is that? Well, consider what Charles Tart said in his classic book Altered States of Consciousness: <br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
“Within Western culture we have strong negative attitudes toward ASCs: there is the normal (good) state of consciousness and there are pathological changes in consciousness. Most people make no further distinctions. We have available a great deal of scientific and clinical material on ASCs associated with psychopathological states, such as schizophrenia: by comparison, our scientific knowledge about ASCs which could be considered “desirable” is extremely limited and generally unknown to scientists. One of the purposes of these articles is to begin to provide some balance; therefore almost all the ASCs treated here have positive qualities in that they are ASCs that many people will go to considerable trouble and effort to induce in themselves because they feel that experiencing a particular ASC is rewarding. Our understanding of mental processes has been greatly facilitated by focusing on psychopathology, but it cannot be complete without looking at the other side of the coin. Further, we need to drop the “good” or “bad” judgments about various ASCs and concentrate on the question: What are the characteristics of a given ASC and what consequences do these characteristics have on behavior in various settings?” </blockquote>
In his book, and in the essay online which corresponds to one of the chapters, Harris says: <br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
“I have two daughters who will one day take drugs. Of course, I will do everything in my power to see that they choose their drugs wisely, but a life lived entirely without drugs is neither foreseeable nor, I think, desirable. ... Needless to say, if I knew that either of my daughters would eventually develop a fondness for methamphetamine or crack cocaine, I might never sleep again. But if they don’t try a psychedelic like psilocybin or LSD at least once in their adult lives, I will wonder whether they had missed one of the most important rites of passage a human being can experience.” <br />
<br />
“[I]t cannot be denied that psychedelics are a uniquely potent means of altering consciousness. Teach a person to meditate, pray, chant, or do yoga, and there is no guarantee that anything will happen. … If, however, a person ingests 100 micrograms of LSD, what happens next will depend on a variety of factors, but there is no question that something will happen. ... Within the hour, the significance of his existence will bear down upon him like an avalanche. As the late Terence McKenna[<a href="http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/drugs-and-the-meaning-of-life#foot_4">4</a>] never tired of pointing out, this guarantee of profound effect, for better or worse, is what separates psychedelics from every other method of spiritual inquiry.” </blockquote>
Indeed, as Terence McKenna observed, you don't see anyone going into the ashram to meditate with heir knees knocking. To quote one of his talks: <br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
“I speak about the power of the psychedelic experience because I think people should be informed of their birthright, and I feel very antsy around the notion that someone might go from birth to the grave without ever having a psychedelic experience. It makes me as antsy as the notion that somebody might go from birth to the grave without having a sexual experience.” </blockquote>
This is not controversial among those of reasonable psychonautic achievement. It's a useful analogy to understand how they must feel. Imagine being surrounded by people who have no real interest in sexual pleasure. Does this give you pause?<br />
` Terence continues: <br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
“It's a strange kind of protective denial, or a kind of expression of fear, this is our birthright. This is part of what it means to be human. … It is possible to build such barriers against overwhelm-ment that it never happens in your whole life, and I believe that if we psychologically analyze the effects of these psychedelics, what they do is they dissolve boundaries, that's all. <br />
<br />
If you interview ten thousand people who have had a psychedelic trip, each one has their own heirophany, their own heiros gamos that unfolded for them, but the sum total of it is, boundaries dissolve. And then whatever's on the other side of your boundary floods in to claim you, and to reshape and to remake your psyche. <br />
<br />
I see the entire illness of our civilization as an ego inflationary illness. We have gone so sick with ego that we are literally murdering the planet rather than confronting the consequences of our own [mental] imbalance. The psychedelics act to redress this, they are almost an inoculation against the ego.” </blockquote>
Finally, on this point, I am glad to see articles about psychedelic research in mainstream press, journalists making an effort to represent the limited amount of psychedelics science that is being permitted and funded. Here's a couple of excerpts from <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/22/magazine/how-psychedelic-drugs-can-help-patients-face-death.html?_r=0">one such article</a> from the New York Times.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
“After transcendent experiences, people often have much less fear of death,” Griffiths says. Fourteen months after participating in a psilocybin study that was published in The Journal of Psychopharmacology last year, 94 percent of subjects said that it was one of the five most meaningful experiences of their lives; 39 percent said that it was the most meaningful experience. </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
...<br />
In a future still far off, Grob imagines retreat centers where the dying could have psilocybin administered to them by a staff trained for the task. Doblin asks: “Why confine this to just the dying? This powerful intervention could be used with young adults who could then reap the benefits of it much earlier.” The subjects who have undergone psilocybin treatment report an increased appreciation for the time they have left, a deeper awareness of their roles in the cycle of life and an increased motivation to invest their days with meaning. “Imagine allowing young adults, who have their whole lives in front of them, access to this kind of therapy,” Doblin says. “Imagine the kind of lives they could then create.” </blockquote>
These drugs are important tools, and a
culture in which people harness their power is at a far greater advantage than
a culture in which people are taught to fear them.<br />
` There's no reason that we can't go back to having thinkers, artists, scientists, and the average person to use them for various reasons, openly and freely.<br />
<br />
And yet, I've met those of the critical thinking sort who think these claims sound silly and see no real value in
psychedelics, especially on a personal level. For this, they think themselves superior. Looking down upon atheistic thought or homosexuality would not likely enter their minds, but they roll their eyes at people's desire to use LSD.<br />
`
Psychedelic drugs allow one to slip out of one's "normal" identity and have an
advantageous perspective in the computer modeling machinery of one's own brain.<br />
` Though drugs cannot impart knowledge, they allow people to think and perceive in ways they could not have otherwise known was possible.<br />
<br />
They also seem to explain where a lot of
that “spirit world” stuff comes from, and anyone who did not know better
would find this natural chemical technology indistinguishable from magic. Which is one reason that skeptics would likely find it interesting.<br />
` Psychedelics are apparently the basis of the Hindu Vedas and lie at the root of many schools of thought and spiritual practices around the globe. They have been important to us for
tens of thousands of years, and not without good reason, as is being rediscovered today.<br />
<br />
They have certainly shaped cultural evolution in the past. I also think that these drugs have tremendous potential in
helping humanity and culture continue to evolve in the far future.<br />
` Which is why I am excited for the <a href="https://ayahuascahealings.com/ayahuasca-church-in-usa-how-are-we-legal/">ayahuasca/mescaline church opening near where I live</a>, the first in the U.S! Despite the religious trappings, I am quite glad to have a legal source of very powerful psychedelic drugs that is actually opening near where I live.<br />
<br />
I'm glad to get something posted on my blog, which describes some of the rumblings of my life. Other rumblings include podcast-related activities. I'm getting a bit busier now that the dust levels in my office are finally starting
to come under control.<br />
` That's what mopping the floor practically every day can do for you. Eventually. The less mopping I have to do, the more other work I can get done.<br />
<br />
More news soon.Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-54198322682082927612015-11-05T10:31:00.000-08:002015-11-06T02:38:14.239-08:00I got the scanner working...Not only is my scanner/printer out of storage, but I've found a way to use it with the laptop. And so, it is now possible for me to scan any number of the hundreds of drawrings from both recent years and farther in the past.<br />
` Today, after about four hours of work, I have a whopping two scans to show for it. I'll get to why that is, but first, the images.<br />
<br />
This is from when I first began to learn about psychedelics, around in late 2012 just before the world didn't end. Although it's in black and white, the
colors seem apparent to me. What do they look like to you? <br />
<br />
<table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj_prj5h2TDjm4CVPqjby0btYGKKV1wjKcXMdGDLjBkbkjYph2coeQJqtvUPIx5XVRa6rNhGrjTatZVdKoWeN-eJU6y2MdvktG2gxLTWxZRK6G_5ocLaZ3OiaI90P7HlMnBQmPSaIp6mPM/s1600/Psychedelic+Vision+1.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="488" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj_prj5h2TDjm4CVPqjby0btYGKKV1wjKcXMdGDLjBkbkjYph2coeQJqtvUPIx5XVRa6rNhGrjTatZVdKoWeN-eJU6y2MdvktG2gxLTWxZRK6G_5ocLaZ3OiaI90P7HlMnBQmPSaIp6mPM/s640/Psychedelic+Vision+1.JPG" width="640" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Glimpses of The Vegetable Mind, 2012</td></tr>
</tbody></table>
The intended colors are as follows:<br />
<br />
<b>Top left:</b> Alternating red and chestnut-colored surfaces, with mother-of-pearl panels and various colored jewels.<br />
<b>Top right:</b> Gold-spangled Champaign sky with weird little 'planetoids', reflected in a deep ocean of sparkliness.<br />
<b>Bottom:</b> Snake-like, plant-like creatures which are mostly red and orange. They possess little 'tendrils' that shoot out of their bodies, then retreat out of sight. These tendrils, which are light in color, can be seen shooting by through holes in the sides of their bodies.<br />
` Sometimes, they are found in cups around brightly colored pencils with pencil toppers, like the two depicted above (one of them meant to be pink and fuzzy). Why this might be is a mystery.<br />
<br />
The second image for this post was originally going to be my second large psychedelic inspiration, which is a view inside of a dodecahedron of portals to various worlds. (A photo of it serves as my background image on Facebook.) Alas, for reasons I'll mention below, this one will have to wait.<br />
<br />
Instead, here's a drawing I did around seventeen years ago. I left it sitting in my scanner while it was in storage, in order to remind myself to get around to scanning these old drawings. Well, that worked pretty well, didn't it?<br />
` I present to you, this ancient drawing of three faceless women surrounded by friendly alien creatures:<br />
<br />
<table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi22TL36CLbt30X2l5_BFeKDf2BWbQefDgH6DngQxKJhAsaQNmr7WohRWM814SPsXqj2clTHIPjFf1wzqqqeDNl9H20_HqUdQV8DR1ZVRAz3oWRZ8ubravoYl30uixnpJyTIA7WK04R0xM/s1600/from+1998.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi22TL36CLbt30X2l5_BFeKDf2BWbQefDgH6DngQxKJhAsaQNmr7WohRWM814SPsXqj2clTHIPjFf1wzqqqeDNl9H20_HqUdQV8DR1ZVRAz3oWRZ8ubravoYl30uixnpJyTIA7WK04R0xM/s640/from+1998.JPG" width="490" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Faceless Women on an Alien World, 1998</td></tr>
</tbody></table>
What is going on when you're spending the evening with a six-legged,
four-eyed alien, watching some four-legged beasts in some kind of
competition, with small creatures flittering through the air?<br />
` I don't know, but this drawing was meant to take you there anyway.<br />
<br />
The reason I call these figures 'faceless' is because I originally was going to put some kind of breathing apparatus on them. After all, if you're on some foreign planet, what are the chances that the air is even safe to breathe, especially with alien microbes in the air?<br />
` I even went so far as to not draw faces on them, although I thought that looked strange, so I added just a suggestion of faces. I was also going to make their clothing look more like spacesuits, but alas never did bother.<br />
` The result is... well... unique. I'll give it that. And after all this time, why bother completing it? So, I haven't.<br />
<br />
In other news, what's going on with the scanner/printer? The scanning function doesn't work directly with my computer, although it does have an SD card reader.<br />
` Here's the funny thing; I have a mini-SD card with a regular SD adapter, so I can plug it into the scanner. In order to get the scans into my laptop, I plug that adapter into a USB adapter.<br />
` Ah, technology. Thank goodness it works.<br />
<br />
As for the dodecahedron drawing, I was going to put two different views of it on this post (instead of the aliens drawing). It is very dense as far as detail goes, and I noticed (too late) that when I used 'Crop To Selection' in ShowFoto, it clipped off the other edges as well.<br />
` I will not stand for this mutiny, especially after scanning this drawing three different times before it was centered well enough to get opposite edges in.<br />
<br />
Next time, I will take care to use Windows for photo editing, because Microsoft Paint can be relied upon for simple tasks such as cropping.<br />
<br />
Happily, I have tons of neat artwork, as well as photo prints that could use some digital
archiving. Not to mention digital photos that I haven't gotten around to
uploading on Flickr.<br />
` And posts that I haven't gotten around to uploading on this blog. And podcasts, even videos. As the momentum builds, I should be churning out a lot more content soon enough!<br />
<br />
Until next time....Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-74855314164617401342015-10-19T10:43:00.000-07:002015-10-22T04:02:48.915-07:00Adventures and Aspirations. And more photos from my smartphone.I'm at that long-awaited point in my life when my foreseeable future finally looks pretty good. For the past few months, I've been busy, among other things moving house yet again – for the lucky thirteenth time in my life!<br />
` And, have been having technical difficulties getting more articles in my blog and podcast up and running.
Also, there's been a huge amount of stuff going on, a bit of which I'll mention below.<br />
` But all this has not been without having some fun and adventures in between! Not to mention, I've encountered <a href="http://stevenpinker.com/">Steven Pinker</a>, <a href="http://www.michaelshermer.com/">Michael Shermer</a> and <a href="http://tonyortega.org/">Tony Ortega</a>, all within in the past few weeks!<br />
` And last month, I took a little trip to a place in Oregon where the giant sea puppies haul themselves onto a dock <i>en masse</i> and bark hypnotically.<br />
<table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhO7mpOigES03uo7xs9vIp6TJ8sse0HbvlUQx0JNtBultkhAmA4M4IltBQfokflw4CpYLBgufN7mpFj8pX2saJWfEwO4yTWqYBH6zpLOwZCPZFmsK4Kubw3WnM-eASB0C-ahlN-ia2kbT4/s640/20150916_115223.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;" /></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Auuurt, auurt, auurt...</td></tr>
</tbody></table>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">At The Amazing Meeting 2015, I told numerous people that I was about to publish the first episode of my skeptical podcast, Skeptophony. When I got back, I immediately began work on Episode 2 and try to figure out how to upload podcasts. And then I came down with a serious case of Con Crud and couldn't get myself to do anything until the end of July.<br />` Even taking a walk was too much for me at times. I discovered that if I just let myself take lots of naps for a few days, I seemed to feel much better than I had years. Which is especially dramatic considering the past few years.</span><br />
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<span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">` Able to get back to my normal, more wakeful schedule, I stopped being able to sleep so well. At the place I was living at the time, a number of factors interfered with my ability to sleep, and I was starting to realize this must be causing not just psychological problems, but serious fatigue and soreness that was really slowing me down.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">` My body was unable to rest and recover well enough from the previous day, which also interfered with my physical rehab routine, so it became a slow spiral downward again.</span></span><br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"></span><br />
<a name='more'></a>Sometime during all this, I listened to an episode of Skeptic's Guide to the Universe when they were talking about how multiple days of sleep deprivation causes people to suffer from memory problems, increases their proneness to accidents, and slows their brain processing speed. It basically makes you stupid, feel depressed, and also kills your sex drive.<br />
<br />
I've been suffering from some level or other of shortchanged sleep for most of my entire life, from surviving some major family dysfunction to several years in which I lived with and next to many very dysfunctional people. Let's not forget the chronic health problems, physical problems, and decades of trauma-related problems which also interfered, and most of which I've made enormous improvements on.<br />
` Chronic sleep deprivation is also a causal factor in heart disease, stroke, diabetes, weight gain and skin aging. It amazes me that I am now as healthy as I am, and that I don't look half bad.<br />
<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;">
</span>
<br />
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<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">The sunglasses shield me from the sea lion hypnosis as well.</td><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span></td></tr>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">Since I've moved to
a much larger and quieter living space. I'm no longer woken up every
other morning by a leaf blower directly outside my window. I have
privacy. And a big floor to do physical rehab stretches. I no longer
have to keep the same sleep schedule as someone who works graveyard.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">` It's very unhealthy when a number of such things interfere with your life and sanity.</span></div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: inherit;">` Now, I feel a lot more awake and 'present', have been getting more naps when needed, and bringing
myself back to health. My struggles tend to be wonderfully mundane, for
example, battling between feeling so hungry that I can't sleep, while struggling to stay awake long enough to eat something.</span></div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: inherit;">` I'm very active, and
when I get enough sleep, taking an 80-minute brisk walk with some wind sprints isn't difficult. But, when I don't get enough
sleep, my entire body aches and it's a challenge just to do 45
minutes of walking. Lifting weights for physical rehab is also immediately fatiguing.</span></div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">And don't get me
started on how it affects my mind! I really do feel like I'm 'losing it' when I don't get enough sleep, but after a week of recovery
I feel perfectly fine.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">` It used to be difficult for me to reach this state of lucidity, but the better my health gets, the easier it gets. Now, I feel that way most of the time and work hard to maintain it and, so to speak, 'keep the colors bright'.</span></div>
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<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Day of the Dahlias!</td></tr>
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<span style="font-family: inherit;">That, along with my
blood sugar, are the only two major health factors in keeping myself
coherent from moment to moment. I used to have to deal with too-large
responsibilities while enduring ill health and unhealthy living conditions, but that has changed:</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">` Now that
I have a break from all of it, I notice the enormity of the impact on
lucidity when losing sleep and low blood sugar are involved.</span><br />
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: inherit;">` This is definitely
not something to mess around with. Thankfully it's now easy for me to
meet my own needs at the bottom steps of Maslov's pyramid, and I'm
now starting to work my way up. You have to start somewhere.</span></div>
<br />
In further keeping my mind functioning, I'm interested in mastering my ability to keep calm in a float tank. They say that once you're able to do that, amazing things can happen in your mind, especially after about an hour of meditation. Alas, this establishment only allows one-hour sessions, so I will have to find someplace else if I want to get serious.<br />
<br />
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<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Unfortunately, I have been unable so far to devolve into an Australopithecus.</td></tr>
</tbody></table>
Not only is my mind
feeling stable, so is my body.<br />
<span style="font-family: Georgia,"Times New Roman",serif;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: inherit;">I could also go on about my current stages of physical rehab, and how I was having trouble getting my outer right glutes to even fire properly, until I discovered that there's been an increasing number of little things in my daily life that were interfering. I will say this:<br />` I've taken steps to reverse this damage and selectively exercise these muscles, which are currently the weakest link in my posture. Second place goes to the muscles of my left inner leg. Both are now coming along quite nicely, faster than they have since I first began focusing more on them a year ago.</span><br />
<span style="font-family: inherit;">` Coincidentally, in looking back through my blog, there's a post from a year ago about my progress up to that point. It's called, "<a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2015/01/heres-to-better-year-and-better-neural.html">Here's to a better year, and better neural and muscular hypertrophy</a>" and has pictures of me from behind. Although I'm still not quite 100%, I've greatly exceeded my expectations! (Should I bother to take another photo...?)</span><br />
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: inherit;"><br /></span>
<span style="font-family: inherit;">At last, the strength of near-symmetrical musculature is mine! After so many years of limping, not knowing what was wrong, my good friend Dr. Hypno pointed out that I had some serious kinetic imbalances, and has been my personal trainer in helping me to fix them.<br />` Yes, in addition to helping me get over the effects of decades of trauma, he's done a tremendous deal to help me fix my physiology as well. I owe so much to this man.</span></div>
<table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjmss8glW8TWV887jj7txuvR1DEG140DhkEmupddKOk_9Po6S5kP0tF531uQTTNGmpf1G1VB56kIdestBtPy21TjVvyFZnalUT5ykikBQ_I1QTm2eNulWPwlSOPdeE0tTgQr5Q44ndEM2Q/s640/20150823_163155.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;" /></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Taking a little walk while at the Temple of Satan's picnic.</td></tr>
</tbody></table>
<style type="text/css">p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; }a:link { }</style>
<br />
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
It's also great to
have my car back. Some of you may remember a post from last year,
shortly after I bought my car. It was so nice to finally have another car that I
didn't have to make payments on!<br />
` But then, when Dr. Hypno's Doom Van
wouldn't start one morning when he went to go to work, I let him use
my “new” Badass Used Saturn Ion. I later told him he could borrow it at least twice a week to get to his job until the van was fixed, which I figured might be a few weeks.</div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br />
In <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/12/yelp-is-scam-if-you-didnt-know-and.html">this post from last December</a>, I
mentioned how a mechanic was unable to tell him what was wrong.</div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
` Since then, another
mechanic with better diagnostic equipment came over and assured him
that it was not the wiring, but rather the coil. So, after already
having replaced such parts as the starter, Dr. Hypno then bought a new
coil and replaced the old one.</div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
` It still didn't
work. But there did seem to be some kind of computer or electrical
problem, the same that he had previously noticed.</div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br />
It wasn't until this
August that a sticker was left on the Doom Van's windshield, saying
that it would be towed by the police. I was in charge of emptying it
of the stuff he was storing in it, and getting help hauling it to my
storage unit.<br />
` Dr. Hypno called a tow truck to come the next morning, but it didn't show up. Leaving the situation unresolved, he went off to
his current job. Which he was unable to take the bus to, and thus was taking my car every day. Because of this, he finally had the money for making some amount of repairs, so this was a huge relief for me.</div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
` After several hours,
it became clear that the tow truck wasn't going to make it, so he
called another one and canceled the first one (which came anyway,
many hours later, to the driver's non-amusement).<br />
` I made sure the van got towed to the right place,
a nearby mechanic's shop, where they immediately found the problem: A
$10 wire.</div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
All this time.</div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
A fucking. Wire.</div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
For. Ten. Months.<br />
<br />
Next on my own to-repair list is the drive belt and the radiator hoses. I don't currently have car insurance,
so I haven't been driving it anyway, other than to take it to the
mechanic's shop and E-Check. It passed, and I was able to buy new
tabs!</div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
` Finally, a year after purchasing my car, I should soon be able to
drive it safely and legally again!</div>
<br />
<table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiJjFKuLVW-iWnj65hIg6DP5qYYX80jR3cnjvfDCEaUM8vU3J8XGq9tp0sNc_ZUjQevqVf8mINWRILDRCBrg0OLPbSwuKlWzEIClTCAFLbFPV13ZosmGBImaWX9n5kAQykELVZrKBRjn-0/s640/20150819_221609.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;" /></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">The setting moon, red with forest fire smoke.</td><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><br /></td><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><br /></td></tr>
</tbody></table>
Although Dr. Hypno
has made the biggest difference in my life, was it really so sensible
for me to let him borrow my car for such a long period of time? Or not to do more to help get the situation resolved?<br />
` Even more questionable,
was it a good idea to stay around my ex just enough to take care of
him and drive him to the ER when necessary, even though it's had
devastating effects, including the nerve damage in my face?<br />
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
My face!!</div>
<br />
<table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjzbpiudf_J1nAPKEwZhjBakbI8AQ5h9YNt3wQSBPJR-_TSJ2rruOCMqU1FhHfJydp9akvl2g8TvbYkS9wX1EzbmeSCUedCf6BrMYcNAv9iQvePXoiG_U3_XRFmFJThyhYtL9Fd9X0VVQ8/s640/20150801_202825.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;" /></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">The setting sun, also red with forest fire smoke.</td></tr>
</tbody></table>
I'm so thankful to
have a place to live where I can have my own space and my own stuff,
it's fairly quiet most of the time – except for occasional
constructiony days. Having some space in which to decompress,
including the best office ever, has been much-needed.<br />
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
` I even have a comfortable place to read books, without straining myself in any way. Hoorah! </div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
Also, I want to thank
Steve Novella and Cara Santa Maria from SGU for helping to inspire the article I'm writing for Skeptic
Magazine.</div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
I will get back to that as soon as I'm done with my library book. It's due tomorrow!<br />
<br />
And as for what's going on with Skeptophony, and more about some of the things going on in my life, well, that would only make this post longer, so I'll just leave you wondering that until next time.<br />
` Until them, I would like to make two points:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
1. This post has been sitting on my computer's hard drive for quite a while, collecting more stuffs until it became this long.<br />
<br />
2. There are many other posts that have been doing the same thing. One by one, they will begin to appear on this blog.<br />
<br />
3. Same goes for my other projects, which I shall be posting about on my blog.</blockquote>
</div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
So, don't be surprised if all this stuff starts appearing at once, like sea puppies on an empty series of piers.</div>
Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-47310296295473960582015-07-15T09:24:00.001-07:002015-07-15T09:24:32.443-07:00Stay Tuned...<p dir="ltr">Writing this from my phone, I'm on my way to The Amazing Meeting, and wanted to mention that I've finally finished the first episode of my podcast, Skeptophony.<br>
That's what I've been working on instead of finishing more blog posts. I haven't been able to upload it, so that will have to wait until I get back.<br>
In other news, my cat Vada has died horribly, and I'm going to have to find another place to live. Never a dull moment.<br>
I am looking forward to my trip, however, and will have to tell you all about it when I get back. Wish me luck!<br>
</p>
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"> <a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg7bletRjN_sPJNRSfM1nmN6e7pnTO5vJBpGiZMm-axmeF5LkksmMD8nyRDp7Li5KuX_sav3q29JrtQXNid3jWu06D-6s6EvPSFVkjXiMJAGlA2eB8A08i4coARfYxtQWC_XnZ2zyYSetY/s1600/20150510_203501.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"> <img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg7bletRjN_sPJNRSfM1nmN6e7pnTO5vJBpGiZMm-axmeF5LkksmMD8nyRDp7Li5KuX_sav3q29JrtQXNid3jWu06D-6s6EvPSFVkjXiMJAGlA2eB8A08i4coARfYxtQWC_XnZ2zyYSetY/s640/20150510_203501.jpg"> </a> </div>Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-9083753445223210802015-05-18T19:47:00.000-07:002015-06-14T17:00:09.557-07:00Thanks to the U.S. obsession with chopping baby penises, my blog has gone viral!I've also had a lot of amazing feedback, including emails, a few of which I'll proudly display here.<br />
One of my initial fears in writing an article like <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-foreskin-why-is-it-such-secret-in.html">The Foreskin: Why is it such a secret in North America?</a> was that I wouldn't be taken seriously -- especially in the U.S. <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-shermer/what-is-skepticism-anyway_b_2581917.html">Skeptic</a> community.<br />
<br />
Two years later, I'm now in the habit of stirring heretical and counter-cultural thoughts among the Skeptics, and <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/12/psychedelics-intoxicants-cultural.html">now on my blog as well</a>. I'm far from worried that I'll be derided as "not skeptical enough".<br />
` I received lots of praise when I finally got the chance to finish the post, not only from skeptics, but from other people the world over! No wonder this article got 211,288 views in the week preceding April 18:<br />
<br />
<table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiDHoRT9J7yQVYCW7WosndESEu8kT0soKepR6eDhaVoeGTKCXDEIu-n_fuwU5bX8zuVNaxkblyKzY2gNIxEK0KBSVlGMefuhBNm7uXw-lwsP46TotxrKg2LH7ynpiX6ySt0SMqG1_d-M34/s1600/Screenshot+from+2015-04-18+00%253A40%253A56.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" height="447" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiDHoRT9J7yQVYCW7WosndESEu8kT0soKepR6eDhaVoeGTKCXDEIu-n_fuwU5bX8zuVNaxkblyKzY2gNIxEK0KBSVlGMefuhBNm7uXw-lwsP46TotxrKg2LH7ynpiX6ySt0SMqG1_d-M34/s640/Screenshot+from+2015-04-18+00%253A40%253A56.png" width="640" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><i><b>Only ten days after that, the total number of pageviews was over 600,000.</b></i> </td></tr>
</tbody></table>
Yes, the article itself is dated May 8, 2013, but that was merely the date which I saved the first draft. I'm not above retro-publishing blog articles, especially when none of the adjacent articles had been published either, and most of the intervening time has been <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/09/surviving-and-keeping-sane-whilst.html">astonishingly insane</a>.<br />
<br />
Now that I have my health, my own Internet connection, and even my own space to write, blogging and getting my facts straight has been easy enough to take on this enormous task.<br />
` After all, it is heresy in America to talk about the foreskins' sexual functions, for the man and his sexual partner. Or to say that smegma is the normal fluid coating the various folds of female genitalia, and in larger amounts than in males.<br />
<br />
Perhaps most shocking of all is that every day in the U.S., there are medical professional who diagnose a boy's normal foreskin as a birth defect called "congenital phimosis".<br />
` A baby's foreskin is supposed to be attached to the head of the penis, which protects it from infection and debris, and it doesn't usually retract for several years.<br />
` Some doctors consider this normal development to be an ailment which must be 'treated' by tearing the membrane that keeps the foreskin in place, and repeatedly washing beneath it.<br />
` This causes severe pain and further problems, which are then blamed on the foreskin instead of the doctor's incompetence.<br />
<br />
Just like most of the other mythical "problems" with foreskins, this belief stems from moral and so-called medical claims which became popular in the late 1800s. Of course, I've explained how all this came to be in my article.<br />
` Persistent belief in such myths is a serious issue, but one that is not likely to end unless significantly more awareness is raised. And I have already done some of the work!<br />
<br />
Here's a screen grab of my weekly stats for today, a whole month later. It seems I've had only 19,934 views this week, along with more views and comments on other posts!<br />
<table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiENPAsoBHKKq1G2xrpVl_gZ8dOpuqk2d9OsiOJvBbiy2JjcZ7ocEkax8hOfUtypYQzG3633geU0LvzmsCrHR3YaevkEu8lCNlsXRjQQ3eFO6gcWbJA0oUZHEnpE0k_bZUh0mTPNP9n19E/s1600/Screenshot+from+2015-05-18+20%253A33%253A40.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" height="406" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiENPAsoBHKKq1G2xrpVl_gZ8dOpuqk2d9OsiOJvBbiy2JjcZ7ocEkax8hOfUtypYQzG3633geU0LvzmsCrHR3YaevkEu8lCNlsXRjQQ3eFO6gcWbJA0oUZHEnpE0k_bZUh0mTPNP9n19E/s640/Screenshot+from+2015-05-18+20%253A33%253A40.png" width="640" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><b>Over two hundred comments on the same post!? WHAT!?!?!! </b></td></tr>
</tbody></table>
That's another thing -- comments! I've never gotten so many! (The numbers are much inflated by one very dedicated troll, however.) So far, none of the replies I've written have shown up in the comments section. I'll no doubt address them soon enough.<br />
<br />
Also in that graphic, you can see my next article's title, <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2015/03/child-circumcision-culture-based.html">Child Circumcision: Culture-based ignorance, fetish, and pseudoscience</a>. It delves even deeper into the insanity, from inaccurate anatomy books and ignorant doctors.<br />
` It even contains my discovery of circumcision advocates who are motivated by a particularly sick brand of pedophilia. These are the guys behind the website "CircInfo", as well as "BoyGuard".<br />
` It is also filled with comments from people who were raised in various cultures, which demonstrate the cross-cultural comparisons I've been making.<br />
<br />
My next three posts essentially wound up <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2015/05/thanks-blogger-for-not-saving-my-last.html">getting deleted</a>, and one of them was about my blog going viral. So, now I'm doing it again!<br />
<br />
Although I "thanked Blogger" for this apparent malfunction, I thought I should take the time to mention that I am thankful that Blogger is really easy to use, hosts my blogs for free, and even tells me my stats.<br />
` I'd also like to thank everyone for their genuine feedback (i.e., not trolling). Some people even helped me to make a few improvements past the first version of this blog post.<br />
` First of all, some commenters were in confusion over my gender, so I added a disclaimer mentioning my girly bits. I also got many emails, and here are several that shaped the various versions of this post:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<style type="text/css">p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120%; }a:link { }</style>
<br />
Jen B </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
Fascinating,
well-researched article...but I have a suggestion:</div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
It's a long piece;
the graphics help "break it up" a little bit, but I think
it would be easier to read/digest (more people would read it in its
entirety) if it were divided into sections with headers. </div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
Great job, though!</div>
</blockquote>
So, I re-read the article, found the 'natural' divisions in subject matter, and added the various bold headings. I also decided to add more information about the efficacy of condoms in preventing HIV.<br />
` Many more emails came into my inbox, including this one:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: UICTFontTextStyleBody;"><span style="font-size: small;">For
all the reasons you describe, we opted not to circumcise our son. We
have a great pediatrician who told us never to let anyone retract his
foreskin. When he was about three years old I was giving him a bath
and he was playing with his penis. He pulled the foreskin back and
the head of his penis popped out. He made a cute remark like "look
what I can do" and I said "neat" and that was that.
There was no blood, pain, or crying. He did it one more time after
that but never again. ... </span></span></div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: UICTFontTextStyleBody;"><span style="font-size: small;">Part of
your blog concerns me though, because it sounds like that shouldn't
have happened until he was a teenager and that he could have somehow
done some damage to himself. Again, he seems fine. He hasn't had any
urinary tract infections nor does he complain about pain. He does
touch his penis sometimes and I ask him why and he says because it
feels good, which seems normal enough to me. Do you know if him
popping the head of his penis out is normal or can you refer me to
someone who would know? </span></span></div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="line-height: 100%; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: UICTFontTextStyleBody;"><span style="font-size: small;">Thanks,</span></span></div>
<br />
P.</blockquote>
I wrote back to P. and also added some more info to my blog, mainly that it's possible for a child this young to be able to fully retract his foreskin. It isn't likely, but it happens on occasion, just as it can take as long as age 18.<br />
<br />
<br />
Then, to my surprise, I received an email from <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/02/05/gary-null-and-sayer-ji-love-me-they-really-love-me/">Sayer Ji of GreenMedInfo</a>. I felt a bit strange accepting his request to allow him to reproduce my article on his website of <a href="http://www.greenmedinfo.com/gmi-blogs/sayer%20ji" rel="nofollow">interesting claims</a> -- but I did.<br />
` Even more comments and emails poured in, and later I found my article re-posted on yet another website! Ji forwarded me an email message from Frank, who wrote:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
I congratulate you and Ms. Quine for her fine, informative article on the human foreskin. But one point, please, that is not so insignificant as one might be tempted to think: The article states categorically that the foreskin retracts upon erection (and, incidentally, spells out the obvious: that retraction exposes the glans). Autonomous, no-hands-needed retraction indeed sometimes does happen---BUT VERY, VERY FREQUENTLY IT DOES NOT...!!! I have not been able to find any statistics whatsoever on this phenomenon---but I know for a fact, from myself and from NUMEROUS other men's experiences, that even a moderately longer foreskin will continue to cover the glans DURING and AFTER full erection. ~~ That's important for two reasons: (1) it is a physiological FACT, and (2) its misrepresentation can make some men without autonomous retraction believe that they are somehow not normal. Heaven forfend that it should impel them to circumcision..... ~~~ Thanks for your attention. </blockquote>
And so, I went back to spell out this fact in my article. And, just to be rigorous, I gave it a little editing once-over, such as removing excessive instances of the phrase "to point out" near the end of the article.<br />
` Now it's better than ever, including copies that had previously been made of it! Besides adding a link to this post at the bottom, will I make any further changes? Only time will tell!<br />
<br />
I've also gotten a few responses from people who want me to know that the HPV vaccine is evil, and I wonder if I'll get sucked into a cycle writing about such things and any of <a href="http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/tag/sayer-ji/">Ji's claims</a> as well?<br />
<br />
In the meantime, I have a lot to take care of in my life. Another post is on the way. Thanks for reading!Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com27tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-82067390371655238712015-05-12T12:41:00.000-07:002015-05-17T15:51:02.891-07:00Thanks, Blogger, for NOT SAVING my last three posts!Now that my blog has gone viral, I've spent countless hours writing a lot of new material to keep my readers coming back.<br />
` Unfortunately, my drafts weren't being saved when I clicked 'Save' on Blogger, so I have almost nothing to show for it. Except for some photos I edited for the purpose of making my blog look more colorful and exotic:<br />
<br />
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhcZBnk-18M2XJHFmzydbv9uu7KvLQ3Mz4OnyZWiqKxVGCs3NxigDoNfa3InLjvbGDFKQcDbC2StfM8ebi1Jk9v3p0gE5F3OE8TH6R9NOs_M7YVnlmLfIe4li7PGJ7wAvpAQGpvdyYON_4/s1600/20150417_Star+Trek+plant+with+ladybug.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="640" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhcZBnk-18M2XJHFmzydbv9uu7KvLQ3Mz4OnyZWiqKxVGCs3NxigDoNfa3InLjvbGDFKQcDbC2StfM8ebi1Jk9v3p0gE5F3OE8TH6R9NOs_M7YVnlmLfIe4li7PGJ7wAvpAQGpvdyYON_4/s640/20150417_Star+Trek+plant+with+ladybug.jpg" width="360" /></a></div>
In March, my laptop was treated to a new Linux operating system, as well as an Internet connection via my new Android phone. <br />
` My immediate thought was -- I must go back and finish some of my old drafts!<br />
<br />
Partly due to a particularly asinine Facebook comment at the time, the first draft that sprang to mind was one I had left for almost two years, called <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-foreskin-why-is-it-such-secret-in.html">The Foreskin: Why is it such a secret in North America?</a> <br />
` It's so secret that many doctors in America don't even know that the foreskin of infants doesn't retract (because it is fused in place), and so wind up damaging and even removing it <i>because they believe</i> this is abnormal.<br />
` As for the population in general, the foreskin is popularly maligned
as causing disease and hindering sex, when in fact quite the opposite is
true. <br />
<br />
People from most other parts of the globe are horrified and shocked when they hear about such ignorance:<br />
` They would never assume that such a large swath of Westerners would think to impose such senseless brutality to their own unconsenting and screaming newborns, nor would it occur to them to believe such patently false myths.<br />
<br />
Why do Americans chop infant penises, and what's up with all the misconceptions and misinformation about the foreskin? Why is it not represented, properly or even at all, in U.S. anatomy books?<br />
` That's a history lesson that my article covers, along with the medical and biological facts. In great detail. Such great detail that many people report becoming upset upon learning these facts from my article. As they should!<br />
<br />
On top of that was yet more interesting stuff that I couldn't fit in this article, such as a video showing the detailed anatomy and function of the foreskin. It is accurate, just like medical textbooks in Europe!<br />
` There were also inaccurate portrayals I have found in American anatomy books, for contrast. I even found a video of a doctor claiming that the foreskins she tears off of screaming infants are not fused in place -- outrageous!<br />
` Not to mention, I included pro-circumcision doctors who invented false identities and studies in order to promote circumcision of children, including for the purpose of preventing boys from masturbating. In this day and age! Really sick stuff.<br />
` Also, I had further anecdotes and Facebook comments that show the cultural differences in people's opinions -- including the one commenter that prompted me to finish this article.<br />
` So, I put that all into my last published post, <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2015/03/child-circumcision-culture-based.html">Child circumcision: Cultural-based ignorance, fetish, and pseudoscience</a>.<br />
<br />
Blogger seemed to be working great at this point, so I went right into writing another article about hypnosis, an article about some cool photos I took (but never so much as posted to Facebook), and one about how my blog went viral.<br />
` Each of these has mostly disappeared -- I say 'mostly', because only the first version was saved, whereas the almost-finished versions were not. Why? Partly because I was foolish enough to not check whether or not my laptop was plugged in, and it ran out of battery.<br />
` When I plugged it in and turned it on, I could only recover the first draft on Blogger.<br />
<br />
Why had it not continued saving my posts? And why had I not thought to save my progress on my laptop instead of on Blogger?<br />
` I actually had been saving on my laptop before I had my own Internet access, and yet could not recover my files after my laptop would shut off unexpectedly. So, either way, I would lose my posts.<br />
` Perhaps a memory stick would work better? The fact that this happened twice (once when I was working on two posts at once) should be a clear message to me that I'm the one ultimately responsible.<br />
<br />
Even so, WTF, Blogger?<br />
<br />
Really, I am disheartened by these losses, especially since I expected to greatly increase my blog production since getting a better operating system, my own Internet connection, and an excess of 700,000 hits!<br />
<br />
<a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/08/where-to-start.html">As I've mentioned a while back</a>, it's immensely easier to blog when I have Internet access and
a place to sit that doesn't cause intense physical cramps, which themselves trigger serious emotional unplesantness. <br />
` I not only have a chair in which I can sit without causing these problems, but I have two! I found the second one in the same yard as the first, and it's an adjustable office chair with a back support attachment!<br />
<br />
In fact, I would like to announce that not only am I fairly well physically rehabilitated (<a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2015/01/heres-to-better-year-and-better-neural.html">particularly my back-side</a>), but that thanks to these chairs as well as the rehab, the cramps take a lot longer to develop if I sit down in a chair that's too low for me.<br />
` So, at least I've gotten my Internet and sitting situation well taken care of!<br />
<br />
Of course, in the past three years there has been a lot of interference with blogging that really has had an enormous impact on my ability to keep up production.<br />
` Besides the brain-destroying <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2015/02/grateful-to-still-be-alive-and-thinking.html">insanity, illness, and instability</a>
of crazy-making life for over two years, there was also the fact that the "Edit Posts"
page didn't like to load up on Blogger a lot of the time.<br />
` Until I started to be able to access it more consistently, this was a serious hindrance to my finishing anything I had started and saved online.<br />
<br />
As of late, things have been busy and I've been having adventures, as well as moving my stuff in and out of storage. Not content with 50 square feet, I've been trying in vain to find a place where I can unpack and move into.<br />
` I'll be back soon enough, typing more frantically than ever to keep this blog well-stocked with new material. Just as I have been.<br />
` Except this time, I will make damn well sure that my laptop doesn't shut off before I can make sure it really has been saved.Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com5tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-61860674811959704662015-03-27T16:12:00.000-07:002015-05-08T02:55:30.494-07:00Child Circumcision: Culture-based ignorance, fetish, and pseudoscienceI have recently been motivated to go back and finish a blog post I had started, entitled <b><a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-foreskin-why-is-it-such-secret-in.html">The Foreskin: Why is it such a secret in North America?</a></b> [I'm glad I did -- it went viral!]<br />
` In it, I describe my shock at age 20 when I was told of the existence of the foreskin, a piece of anatomy I had never before encountered, neither in the flesh nor depicted in any anatomy book I'd seen.<br />
` (This is bizarre, considering that it's more well-developed in human beings than in other species.) What was it for, I wondered, and why had it been so thoroughly erased from U.S. culture?
<br />
<div>
<br />
That post goes into great detail on all that, including the brutal history of how circumcision became a 'medicalized' ritual in white, Christian, sexually suppressive late-nineteenth century America:<br />
` It had the 'medical' goal of desensitizing the penis in order to discourage masturbation and other ejaculations outside of intercourse (a "disorder" called <i>spermatorrhea</i>). </div>
<div>
` Thanks to a few cultural quirks of the early and mid-twentieth century, tearing off the perfectly good foreskins of screaming newborns became 'medicalized' practice a few other countries, although it has since been rejected in most of them as essentially a form of genital mutilation.</div>
<div>
<br />
Strangest of all, widespread infant circumcision has continued in the U.S. for so long that there are still doctors who are ignorant of the fact that boys' foreskins don't typically separate from the glans for the first several years of life.<br />
` That's right; possessing a perfectly average penis is not necessarily enough to stop a boy from being diagnosed with <i>congenital phimosis</i>, another "disorder" from late-1800s America.<br />
` In order to "correct" it, the doctor may recommend tearing the foreskin back (a.k.a. <a href="http://www.examiner.com/article/premature-foreskin-retraction-don-t-let-it-happen-to-your-baby">premature forced retraction</a>) several times a day. After much screaming, bleeding, and other complications such as infections, the ultimate "fix" may be circumcision:<br />
` The problem is then blamed on the foreskin and not the doctor's ignorance, thus continuing the cycle of social surgery. (I'll get back to this.)</div>
<div>
<br />
Such an outrageous level of incompetence can happen in a medical setting because in American culture -- including medical texts -- you will tend to find misconceptions about this piece of anatomy, if anything at all.<br />
` Like any science/<a href="http://www.skeptic.com/about_us/">skeptically-oriented</a> blogger, I packed as much information as possible into my intense account of discovery. <i>[I have received much acclaim from not only skeptically oriented people, but some of the hundreds of thousands of others who have seen it!]</i><br />
<br />
Having
gotten most of the technical details out of the way, I can start a second
post on this subject which includes material that wouldn't fit in the
first one:<br />
` It starts out with content from biased U.S. anatomy books and an educational video which essentially shows what was left out of them. Next, I explore some of the real <i>and</i>
fictitious pro-circumcision "researchers":<br />
` One of them is into circumfetish, has written an erotic novel dealing with circumcision, and even sold chastity belts for boys on <a href="http://circwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/boyguard.jpg">a website <i>promoting parents' control of boys' sexuality </i>by a tight circumcision</a> and devices to keep him from masturbating.<br />
<br />
I can't make this stuff up.<br />
<br />
Neither
can I make up my bizarre encounter with the crazy Born-Again Christian
lady, nor all the comments from Facebook which demonstrate the influence
of culture on people's opinions of the matter.<br />
` In fact, Facebook was the first place I posted this educational video about the functions of the foreskin, produced by Gavin Sisk, MFA at University of Washington Health Sciences Academic Services and Faculties, along with <a href="http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/about/aboutdoc.html">George C Denniston MD</a>.<br />
<br />
This kind of content is found in medical textbooks outside the
U.S., and includes the sexual and protective functions of the male
prepuce (foreskin), as well as the development of male and female
prepuces. <br />
` My aforementioned blog article covers this topic in detail, although
this video is a much better visual reference, and even features pictures of
dead baby and embryo genitalia. Bonus!<br />
` It's definitely Not Safe For Work, but at the same time, anything but erotic. You may want to check it out now, or later -- it's 20 minutes of skin and info.<br />
<br />
<iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/D_dzeDvx2QA" width="420"></iframe>
<br />
<br />
Important to my discussion here, the video shows a microscope image of the membrane that fuses a young child's foreskin and glans, much like the membrane that fuses your fingernail to your finger.<br />
` Incredibly, there really are doctors who circumcise infants and claim that the foreskin of children isn't fused and that this membrane doesn't exist!<br />
<br />
Yes, really -- and I've got evidence of this, but first, some other points from the video:<br />
<br /></div>
<div>
The infant foreskin usually protrudes beyond the urethra, only able to retract enough to allow urination. Sometimes, this moveable, protective bit of foreskin is "diagnosed" as <i>redundant prepuce</i> and cut off.<br />
` Gradually, the membrane holding the foreskin in place dissolves, which generally happens by adolescence. When it is able to retract fully, the foreskin is ready to be used as a spring-loaded sexual organ.<br />
<br />
As my article explicitly describes in great detail, a man's foreskin allows his penis to roll inside-out against itself, and to do many things a circumcised penis cannot do.<br />
` In the video, there are also microscope images of the clusters of
fine-touch nerve endings in the foreskin's ridges. Indeed, the foreskin
contains more than a third of the nerve
endings in the entire penis, and makes up about half the skin that
covers it.<br />
<br />
The video also lists many long-term effects of circumcision, such as desensitizing the penis, immobilizing the moving parts, and callusing the glans. If a man wants to do this to himself, informed consent is important!<br />
` As for ripping off a clueless newborn's foreskin, the tearing of his most sensitive erogenous zone causes his heart rate and stress hormones skyrocket: Many boys scream long enough to turn slightly blue, while some go into shock and become quiet.<br />
` This early trauma causes prolonged irritability, diminishes attentiveness, hinders parental bonding, as well as disrupts breastfeeding, REM sleep and sleep/wake cycles.<br />
` It creates permanent neurological changes in pain perception, and can even create emotional problems later on. And that's not even counting the physical effects and other possible complications, which I of course covered in my article.<br />
<br />
Helpfully, this video lists some other body parts that were once deemed redundant or defective -- the adenoids, mastoids, tonsils and appendix. In fact, my own mother and her brother were made to have their tonsils removed as kids, for no medical reason at all:<br />
` Before tonsils' function was understood, this was believed to be beneficial, but today a tonsilectomy is only recommended in extreme cases of infection or other problems. Generally speaking, the same can be said of any other part of the body, and it is no different for the part we are focusing on here.<br />
` I've noticed that unlike the other items on the 'once deemed defective' list, the foreskin is external and has obvious functions, which were documented by Renaissance Era anatomists.<br />
` This knowledge was only lost, mainly in U.S. culture, in the past 150 years. With the help of modern science and media, it is returning in greater detail than ever. Unfortunately, it's not happening fast enough:<br />
<br />
I've just found a short video where a doctor claims that the foreskins of infants are <i>not</i> fused to the glans. What's more, she's apparently been circumcising infants for 25 years -- and she didn't know that 'probing' the foreskin is like ripping off a fingernail!<br />
` Her name is Claudia Fruin, and the video was taken outside of an American Academy of Pediatrics conference by protesters of child circumcision.<br />
` She makes her unbelievable statement just after the 2:50 mark, then implies that the protesters don't know what they're talking about because they've never circumcised an infant. Really.<br />
` Then, the protesters discuss the doctor's scramble to solve her cognitive dissonance. To avoid embedded video and picture overload in this post, here's the link: <a href="https://youtu.be/TKESVrvygUE">Circumciser Tries and Fails To Defend Violating Children</a>.<br />
<br />
Just think: Throughout human history, people generally have known not to retract the foreskin before it's ready. That knowledge has only become obscured for so many millions of people in recent times.<br />
` That there are doctors who actually do this in a large, industrialized nation, well
into the twenty-first century, is a testament to the vastness of human
ignorance. Also, greed, as the amputation and selling of foreskins is a
billion and a half dollar per-year industry:<br />
` This can only happen because infant circumcision is about the most common surgery in the U.S., and it's almost
always performed without therapeutic indications, or much (if any)
anesthesia.<br />
` If the decision had simply been left
up to the individual himself to decide whether to be circumcised, as it
is with women, it would be a fairly rare occurrence, as it is in most
parts of the world.<br />
<br />
<br />
<div style="text-align: center;">
<b>Anatomy Book Errors and Biases </b></div>
<br />
So, how can people become so ignorant of a piece of external anatomy with a clear purpose? For reasons I explained in my article, it was made rare in the wake of WWII, when almost every infant in the U.S. was circumcised.<br />
` With no frame of reference, even the guys themselves who were circumcised were unlikely to ever learn the truth about what was done to them. This extends to anatomy books, which are still often seen to leave out the foreskin or contain inaccurate information or illustrations.<br />
` For example, although the foreskin typically pulls back from the glans during an erection, there are anatomy text illustrations showing the foreskin covering the glans during an erection as though it is an immobile structure.<br />
` This, as I explained in my article, is a common misconception, leading to myths that the foreskin impedes sexual function and cleanliness. It's only possible for people to believe this when they don't have contradictory evidence from the real thing!<br />
<br />
Just to take some random examples, I happen to know someone who has a variety of anatomy books, so I decided to take pictures of their partly-dissected male naughty bits.<br />
` I managed to find most of these books, and have posted photos from them, obviously for education about anatomy books rather than genitalia. (Plus, they enlarge readily when clicked upon!)<br />
<a name='more'></a><br />
<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiKpQL2Xh-Xub2hxHVdxr0N3r24cWa2e9xZ6JjPutYHJA7HZqTGfvbgjO6oUL-ZBJZ_-TcUNjrpGX6mxagVdHeffsUrjIO3iqpFmnoVXemNkozGq9JeuF-yZojZc7UIijjyX4BKtB1VbMQ/s1600/CIFP1.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="200" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiKpQL2Xh-Xub2hxHVdxr0N3r24cWa2e9xZ6JjPutYHJA7HZqTGfvbgjO6oUL-ZBJZ_-TcUNjrpGX6mxagVdHeffsUrjIO3iqpFmnoVXemNkozGq9JeuF-yZojZc7UIijjyX4BKtB1VbMQ/s1600/CIFP1.jpg" width="130" /></a>The blue one to the left is to be seen in the 1994 edition of the National Geographic Society's <i>The Incredible Machine</i>. It's a thick tome, lavishly packed with photographs and electron scanning microscope images.<br />
<br />
The illustration completely leaves out the foreskin, and the text doesn't even mention it at all. I checked.<br />
` This sort of thing is why educational speakers on this topic actually need to describe some of the most basic facts of male anatomy.</div>
<div>
` Though <i>The Incredible Machine</i> is more of a popular book than a medical text, it is rather detailed: If you didn't know any better, you would never have the impression that an important external body part has been left out. Why would it be? <br />
<br />
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; text-align: right;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg9LqzopBUVcrvMS4Ov5U9As1alsKiCzVvEBn6rti87nEsLxQgwLnBNA9-VcvBDgRnOXbIqmOJr09K-1rX99ztqcgge9Hceu2Gran6uf9HCR9OYukNplLR_fhgHeck6ua0v5A168rgltBY/s1600/CIFP2.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" height="180" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg9LqzopBUVcrvMS4Ov5U9As1alsKiCzVvEBn6rti87nEsLxQgwLnBNA9-VcvBDgRnOXbIqmOJr09K-1rX99ztqcgge9Hceu2Gran6uf9HCR9OYukNplLR_fhgHeck6ua0v5A168rgltBY/s1600/CIFP2.jpg" width="320" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">However, the manatee prepuce wasn't labeled.</td><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><br /></td></tr>
</tbody></table>
A much smaller volume is TAJ Books's 2002 <i>Atlas of Anatomy</i>. It actually does depict a small cross-section of the penis that includes the foreskin, and labels it. However, there is zero mention of it in the text.<br />
` In the illustration showing the development of the genitalia, the male prepuce is labeled, although strangely, the female prepuce is not.<br />
` Interestingly, it has a section on how bisexuality is normal for some species -- and it depicts a manatee (which it calls a "sea lion") giving another manatee a flipper job. I've included this illustration for their hilarious facial expressions.<br />
<br />
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: left; text-align: center;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhHKi9l60wgYNKBH6d_w4cuwBSgpiTpeN6Ul3DZqA7STGL08hyrAB1HiR-AggHYxfHuOUhnw2qYm90_WaTnqOZbLuDiEobrO6WKF1t1dOvj2wuITeqYtRNxen9LNDWNgrVIvU6RDHERcFk/s1600/CIFP3.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhHKi9l60wgYNKBH6d_w4cuwBSgpiTpeN6Ul3DZqA7STGL08hyrAB1HiR-AggHYxfHuOUhnw2qYm90_WaTnqOZbLuDiEobrO6WKF1t1dOvj2wuITeqYtRNxen9LNDWNgrVIvU6RDHERcFk/s1600/CIFP3.jpg" width="180" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">"I'm just as surprised!"</td></tr>
</tbody></table>
<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgOQjA_oqZksjAVqp_wxjxxguVo4Quevz08srh7cbKEwN6JB56lbs7F00Eumy7qbL4qguRXNOyseufHYlwrliyG8Hu8bDTDFBqDCpked2NIQ07Mnz5dqvm5KiS_81KMb47HB8DpguX4tPg/s1600/CIFP4.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgOQjA_oqZksjAVqp_wxjxxguVo4Quevz08srh7cbKEwN6JB56lbs7F00Eumy7qbL4qguRXNOyseufHYlwrliyG8Hu8bDTDFBqDCpked2NIQ07Mnz5dqvm5KiS_81KMb47HB8DpguX4tPg/s1600/CIFP4.jpg" width="192" /></a>The most technical anatomy book I found was <i>Human Anatomy</i>, 4th Ed., 2003, by Martini, Timmons and
Tallitsch. It has illustrations and
detailed photographs of practically every part of the body -- with one glaring
exception.<br />
` Indeed, even in this illustration of the entire naked man, we are led to believe that every part of him represents the natural human form.<br />
<br />
The illustration and cadaver cutaway [right] does appear to depict the foreskin, although it is difficult to see, and is not labeled. If you didn't know it was supposed to be there, you may not even notice it -- it even took me a few minutes.<br />
<br />
<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjtJyc8lXdcUhbhKMUKi9yVRLbvEiEN1Ls9OA0YOpXyKXDOAasc10C2Vk7eUqNsFoqR_SPCBowCtnOqeLPIQs1ACfimiSfYsUuUog1IPHWNN28Sv5vLjfU7ksK8wh-IFACCOVBi4EOKGgI/s1600/CIFP6.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjtJyc8lXdcUhbhKMUKi9yVRLbvEiEN1Ls9OA0YOpXyKXDOAasc10C2Vk7eUqNsFoqR_SPCBowCtnOqeLPIQs1ACfimiSfYsUuUog1IPHWNN28Sv5vLjfU7ksK8wh-IFACCOVBi4EOKGgI/s1600/CIFP6.jpg" width="168" /></a><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgAPAdAVCnk6Ozhvv-BsY4iUHzVYTBAtqJt-O5jUzR__nIjIZIw-EUze4lgOeo9aZFPMtyyl-oNojvOR2paGpEnuXPT7AmPzN8_F4_vLpG-Yo7KNCaNXGwg-62ekr9THu2eTu9NGM-ZRhM/s1600/CIFP5.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgAPAdAVCnk6Ozhvv-BsY4iUHzVYTBAtqJt-O5jUzR__nIjIZIw-EUze4lgOeo9aZFPMtyyl-oNojvOR2paGpEnuXPT7AmPzN8_F4_vLpG-Yo7KNCaNXGwg-62ekr9THu2eTu9NGM-ZRhM/s1600/CIFP5.jpg" width="180" /></a>In this book, there are many illustrations of male genitalia. One of them actually does depict and label the foreskin [top left], although not in any detail.<br />
` The illustration below it does not depicts the part I was looking for.<br />
<br />
Strangely, in the illustration of testicular descent [right], the fetus' penis looks ambiguous as to whether it has a foreskin or has been mysteriously circumcised before birth.<br />
<br />
In the illustration depicting the cross-section of testicles, the little line drawing is clearly depicting abridged anatomy:<br />
<table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjjtBCWzI_0Hy4GvddUj1g2LV8FeeVRcXBRa2ie4rAfyXnWokfRLZVzfWuL9o1egjYdLfUCFDfpR7S53hlhfFwEoSxmVhTTtrtnVqm-wvdJ5lRajMrVohdo6NKZrp937UE5N8t56d-XAY4/s1600/CIFP8.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" height="218" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjjtBCWzI_0Hy4GvddUj1g2LV8FeeVRcXBRa2ie4rAfyXnWokfRLZVzfWuL9o1egjYdLfUCFDfpR7S53hlhfFwEoSxmVhTTtrtnVqm-wvdJ5lRajMrVohdo6NKZrp937UE5N8t56d-XAY4/s1600/CIFP8.jpg" width="400" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">However, the rest of the line drawing-guy seems to be missing, so he's got bigger problems.</td></tr>
</tbody></table>
<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEijmVKPxViO3XlTN2XfUizvo0KyWA66uY5HHoeCEN3BBAa1v9qMouE8zYPmYd8tVUOQffFfaWGyPQC4HqbvFrvdjf6WYCofyX1FWGBLtuLPevqmkOkpqDRZbEyerDYqMlZhTje5giEXksY/s1600/CIFP9.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEijmVKPxViO3XlTN2XfUizvo0KyWA66uY5HHoeCEN3BBAa1v9qMouE8zYPmYd8tVUOQffFfaWGyPQC4HqbvFrvdjf6WYCofyX1FWGBLtuLPevqmkOkpqDRZbEyerDYqMlZhTje5giEXksY/s1600/CIFP9.jpg" width="171" /></a><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjejAHITspNi98PYgSS9rhdZCjzBTFPYxU-MFWOdGO00rKCcUUikxX172y3HQmPgLj_BeLrLCCbwExyiI0UbXYFMmiMgRo5kdGK4lOboM9o1TAgWw2iyjCM-OSzrhSjKV_1QqlCc4Mjp2Y/s1600/CIFP7.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjejAHITspNi98PYgSS9rhdZCjzBTFPYxU-MFWOdGO00rKCcUUikxX172y3HQmPgLj_BeLrLCCbwExyiI0UbXYFMmiMgRo5kdGK4lOboM9o1TAgWw2iyjCM-OSzrhSjKV_1QqlCc4Mjp2Y/s1600/CIFP7.jpg" width="204" /></a>And yes, there's yet one more illustration of partly-dissected male genitalia, which is somewhat ambiguous, although the glans is clearly rendered as callused.<br />
<br />
On the right is a computer visual reconstruction from the included software, along with a scanner section.<br />
` I've never actually seen the software itself, but from here it is difficult to make out anything that looks like a prepuce.<br />
<br />
If that was not enough, the text is full of misinformation: This description says nothing about it as any sort of moveable or sexual structure, it merely seems to be an outlet to promote myths about anatomy, smegma, and disease.<br />
<br />
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: left; margin-right: 1em; text-align: left;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgtleINKpaoVI4Opto9s7CY_gPR6vufkiqxgq4-CIvwAap9uEN_x2_nc60QdlEDKSRmnYCR9HqGD_YCzsFYBQScsZWbps47vu2MZYh5QxfLi_JNBaicIhBtMRgBfciRaOS7eZREK_cz7yA/s1600/CIFP9a.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" height="190" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgtleINKpaoVI4Opto9s7CY_gPR6vufkiqxgq4-CIvwAap9uEN_x2_nc60QdlEDKSRmnYCR9HqGD_YCzsFYBQScsZWbps47vu2MZYh5QxfLi_JNBaicIhBtMRgBfciRaOS7eZREK_cz7yA/s1600/CIFP9a.jpg" width="320" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Yes, it really does say that.</td></tr>
</tbody></table>
"A fold of skin, the <b>prepuce</b>... surrounds the tip of the penis."<br />
<i>[No -- it is the tip of the penis!]</i><br />
` "...There are no hair follicles on the opposing surfaces, but <b>preputial glands</b>... in the skin of the neck and the inner surface of the prepuce secrete a waxy material known as <b>smegma</b>... <i>[The implication here is that this is a problem, although it doesn't mention that the genitalia of women secrete far more smegma than those of men.]</i><br />
` "Unfortunately, smegma can be an excellent nutrient source for bacteria." <i>[Similar to saliva and earwax, smegma is fairly anti-bacterial, although contains its own protective microflora. The implication is that it causes disease -- however, mammals could not have evolved smegma in the first place if it were such a disadvantage!]</i><br />
` "Mild inflammation and infections in this region are common, especially if the area is not washed thoroughly and frequently." <i>[As I've explained in my article, rinsing is all that is needed, and soap can actually cause infection. If this statement were true, it would also be true of women, who have many smegma-coated folds.]</i><br />
` "One way of avoiding trouble is to perform a <b>circumcision</b>... and surgically remove the prepuce." <i>[Okay, so... option A: Rinse in shower. Option B: Cut off sensitive erogenous zone. Which is more sensible?]</i><br />
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="float: left; margin-right: 1em; text-align: left;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjkbOns3JqkHc8kgHXnp2i2_9E8WycgwD4uLtkCtliAabUIWKWDUZhTCG-Liyn_c8DVo1mY9p_CXzry6DuvWlOuWxMp6JqMtpN9cOFWEwtdF7hxUecIIo1jpdo5yVgePkCAlNoXaBwVUCI/s1600/CIFP9b.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjkbOns3JqkHc8kgHXnp2i2_9E8WycgwD4uLtkCtliAabUIWKWDUZhTCG-Liyn_c8DVo1mY9p_CXzry6DuvWlOuWxMp6JqMtpN9cOFWEwtdF7hxUecIIo1jpdo5yVgePkCAlNoXaBwVUCI/s1600/CIFP9b.jpg" width="181" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Also... Traditional <br />
Chinese Medicine?</td></tr>
</tbody></table>
` "In Western societies (especially <i>[almost exclusively]</i> in the United States), this procedure is usually performed shortly after birth. Although controversial, continuation of this practice is supported by strong cultural biases and <i>[very poor and conflicting] </i>epidemiological evidence. Uncircumcised males <i>[notice they don't use the word 'intact']</i> have a higher incidence of urinary tract infections and are at greater risk for penile cancer than circumcised males."<br />
<br />
As I've explained thoroughly in my article, neither of those statements are likely to be true, but even if they were, these problems are of such little concern to infants that they would not be worth chopping off a valuable body part that will affect his future sex life.<br />
` Also, if we take this reasoning to girls, who are many times more likely than boys to get UTIs, then why don't doctors do surgery on them as a preventative measure? Similarly, one could argue that their breast buds should be removed because they have a 1 in 12 chance of getting breast cancer when they're older. Of course, baby boys don't get penile cancer, and it's extremely rare to begin with.<br />
` In fact, one of my Facebook friends sent me an article from her colleague about <a href="http://surgicalopinion.blogspot.com/2015/02/keep-penile-cancer-prevention-argument.html">how penile cancer should be taken out of the routine infant circumcision debate</a>. You're more likely to get earlobe cancer than penile cancer, so why not cut off the earlobes instead?<br />
` As for the authors of this anatomy book, who themselves teach anatomy and physiology, you'd think they'd know what a real foreskin would look like, what it does, and how it develops and moves. How could the three of them together be so wrong?<br />
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<br />
<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiv4ih80mcVXH3chKZFsqRB9qBz8-phJ1J2SX9yHTcpL3pGQMdZEnzlkXokiTvVSIxecTvK7VJ8jSPQSPKjUTNuLdkHjlp9cBPfhzgLLN8SbyT7EYgx46e_dWsl5JsPzOLK4BBnN2eULD0/s1600/CIFP9c.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiv4ih80mcVXH3chKZFsqRB9qBz8-phJ1J2SX9yHTcpL3pGQMdZEnzlkXokiTvVSIxecTvK7VJ8jSPQSPKjUTNuLdkHjlp9cBPfhzgLLN8SbyT7EYgx46e_dWsl5JsPzOLK4BBnN2eULD0/s1600/CIFP9c.jpg" width="186" /></a>The last two books are American editions from the British company Dorling Kindersley: <i>The Body Atlas</i> (1993) and <i>The Human Body Book</i> (2007).<br />
` They do depict the foreskin, although even these have an inaccurate description of it as "loose skin". The Body Atlas [right] also describes the glans as "sensitive", even though it is considerably less sensitive to fine touch than the foreskin.<br />
` So, the DK books have one accurate illustration, although not quite correct descriptions, and they don't go into any detail beyond that. I am not sure how these compare with the original British editions, however.<br />
<br />
Back to the educational video, which I posted on Facebook this past January, I got a lot of positive feedback. Plus, I got to talk about my own sexual and cultural experiences, and the pro-circumcision HIV doctor interviewed in an episode of the Australian podcast <i>The Skeptic Zone</i>.<br />
` With some irony, her claims did not meet any skepticism on the show, although I am fairly sure that I have debunked them in my article. The first of these comments is from a resident of Belgium, who asks:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/luc.vandecasteele.5?fref=ufi">Luc Vande Casteele</a></b> what is the ratio of men with or without foreskin that you encounter? <br />
<br />
<b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi">Spoony Quine</a></b>
For men born in the US that I've seen naked, it's been about one with a
foreskin per about 50 without. That is, I found one by chance.<br />
<br />
For
men born in Denmark, Belgium, Germany, etc they all have had
foreskins. One born in Sweden did not because of a penile deformity, his
parents and doctors gave up trying to save it when he was four. Other
than that, all the Europe- born guys have been intact.<br />
<br />
I just realized how slutty this all sounds <br />
<br />
<b>Luc Vande Casteele</b> it only sounds slutty because of the double standard you have been indoctrinated with. </blockquote>
Then, one of the Australian Skeptics chimed in:<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153060142559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153060400394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=754583572&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153060400394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/jo.alabaster?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153060400394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Jo Alabaster</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153060400394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153060400394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">I
find that age factors into it greatly in Australia. The majority of men
I've encountered born before around 1975 tend to have been
circumcised.. after that, routine male infant circumcision became far
less common.</span><br />
<br />
<b>Spoony Quine</b> Indeed, the circumcision practice spread from the US to Australia around WWII and became common for a while before it started to be questioned.<br />
<br /></div>
<b>Jo Alabaster</b> It's a curious thing. I was pleased that nobody even mentioned it when my son was born - I know that a generation ago, it was often just assumed by hospital staff that it would be carried out.<br />
<br />
<br />
<b>Spoony Quine</b> When my brother was born in about 1970, they did it to him without even asking my mom first. Neither of them knew what a foreskin was until well after he was living on his own.<br />
<br />
When I told him what a foreskin was, he said he thought that foreskins are horrible and says he's glad he never had to deal with having one. As for people who like them, such as myself, he thinks there is something wrong with us.<br />
<br />
As for me, I find that a foreskin is the only way to completely prevent friction/drying , which I have found causes lasting pain , inflammation and sometimes infection. Either that or luck out with a particular size/shape that doesn't rub raw. <br />
<br />
I was actually told that I'm wrong about this by a doctor. Who circumcises babies. </blockquote>
<ul class="UFIList" data-reactid=".jf"></ul>
After this encounter with the doctor, I went to the interwebs to see how big of a deal this is according to other people.<br />
` I found that there is some research showing that this happens -- as well as many personal testimonials, especially from women who say they have unusually narrow vaginas. Well, I am a freak in that way as well, so, makes sense.<br />
<br />
Although I was vaguely aware that this problem existed, I didn't know anything was amiss in my own life until after I had finally tested this out for myself. And I thought it might be a huge challenge, shall we say.<br />
` Instead I am grateful to<span class="null"> finally understand that I'm not frightened of intercourse and that size doesn't hurt. There was no working a long time to get it in -- the movement of the skin prevented any friction from occurring. I experienced no pain whatsoever.</span><br />
<br />
<span class="null">Although I once felt confused and ashamed of "my problem", I am grateful to have found it is more physical than psychological, and that it's an expected difficulty.</span><br />
<span class="null">` I need not feel that it is my fault or my attitude that is causing it: If a sexual partner tells me it is, that's a sign I need to stop having sex with him, instead of believing that I am doing something wrong and must "fix myself".</span><br />
<br />
<span class="null">The only downside is, now that I've been 'spoiled', I don't like going back.</span><br />
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=616393500&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/dsolaro?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Denis Solaro</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">I
did notice on the Skeptoid mailing list (which I left when it was all
about Henk and Carbs) that people who had their foreskin taken out at
birth were split between the "I want my foreskin back" camp and the
rabid "you will die if you have a foreskin</span></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">" clan. There is that obligation to remove newborns foreskins because that's how it was to them. </span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$2:0">It's
purely conformism. Guys who had it removed for no valid reason (Torah,
quran, silly medical fad) don't want to look stupid now. </span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153061526559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$6:0">But
if you did look at the european posters, none of those who still have
their wanted to remove anything to anyone. To them it made no sense. And
we don't impose things either, you are still free to have that done in
Europe too.</span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/1975054_10152308333139201_534222844_n.jpg?oh=8f02753eb85b6850ff88c237ecffdc66&oe=55549966&__gda__=1433316768_67c33ac8bd4f282e01608ff4f40a6a44" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right">
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<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Yes, if you want to do it to yourself , of course</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">God,
America is so backwards. ...</span></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"> Is it any wonder Viagra is so popular in this country?</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">Also,
on the skeptic zone, they <a href="http://skepticzone.libsyn.com/the-skeptic-zone-303-10aug2014">had this doctor on who claims it's really great for preventing HIV</a>, and since she likes circumcised cock so much,
she said something like "come on, guys, don't you think it's worth
losing a little bit of feeling just to make it more pleasurable for your
girlfriend?"</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$6:0">That
is so sexist I almost vomited. Just think, there are also doctors who
say that female circumcision helps prevent HIV infection, so if they
said "come on girls, don't you think it's worth sacrificing..." I mean,
really? That's just insulting. Even if it were true I wouldn't want to
do it.</span></span></span></span></span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062076349201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=685711763&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/lee.stevenson?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/10525578_10153064642751764_5768059884587394888_n.jpg?oh=c21dc0bca3765f84fb057b0605082b40&oe=555F5645&__gda__=1431905699_c14ee1b73c697d236149189c79a67031" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px 0px 0px 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0.0.$right.0.$left">
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=685711763&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/lee.stevenson?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Lee William Stevenson</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">Happy I still have mine, but at the end of the day, its no big thing! </span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062170049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine/posts/10153060068264201?comment_id=10153062170049201&offset=0&total_comments=31" style="color: #9197a3; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"></a></span><br /></div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062330649201:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062330649201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062330649201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/1975054_10152308333139201_534222844_n.jpg?oh=8f02753eb85b6850ff88c237ecffdc66&oe=55549966&__gda__=1433316768_67c33ac8bd4f282e01608ff4f40a6a44" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062330649201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062330649201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062330649201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062330649201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062330649201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062330649201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062330649201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062330649201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">Big compared to what </span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062330649201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062330649201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062330649201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine/posts/10153060068264201?comment_id=10153062330649201&offset=0&total_comments=31" style="color: #9197a3; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"></a></span><br /></div>
</div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/1975054_10152308333139201_534222844_n.jpg?oh=8f02753eb85b6850ff88c237ecffdc66&oe=55549966&__gda__=1433316768_67c33ac8bd4f282e01608ff4f40a6a44" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px 0px 0px 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">You
might think it was a big deal if you [knew] people who
think you are sick for being happy with your foreskin. There are even
girls who refuse to have sex with a guy unless he's circumcised.</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">I've found that people who bring up the subje</span></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">ct
by telling me that they are weirded out by foreskins or are going to
have their baby circumcised, will often explode in a rage if I don't
approve.</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">...[anecdotes, which I've either already shared or will share below in more detail]</span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0"></span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">Also,
the fact that so many people don't know that the foreskin isn't
supposed to retract in infants... </span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062381659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">This is really dangerous ignorance, when you think about it.</span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=502943483&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062423949201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/kstebleton?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062423949201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-prn2/v/t1.0-1/c6.2.29.29/p34x34/248480_10150205023093484_2521607_n.jpg?oh=46126be45d8156356e1ed58a4b769bd0&oe=556B7388&__gda__=1431048941_07078626e9a229ee3fc1e602b7bf2695" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062423949201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062423949201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=502943483&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062423949201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/kstebleton?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062423949201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Kevin Stebleton</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062423949201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153062423949201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">Religion
... Be wrong first, then deny the truth for centuries, and eventually
adopt the current thinking. Fill in the misconception.</span></div>
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=616393500&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/dsolaro?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Denis Solaro</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">It can retract no problems. You have to maintain it clean though and a daily shower does that. </span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$2:0">One
strange thing about foreskins is that you have a greater chance to have
this thing too, hirsutoid papillomas. It's nothing bad at all, in
circumcised people it usually dried out. But with intact people it can
be more sensitive. </span></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$4:0">(NSFW) </span><a class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$range0:0" dir="ltr" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirsuties_coronae_glandis" rel="nofollow" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirsuties_coronae_glandis</a></span></span></span></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine/posts/10153060068264201?comment_id=10153063273614201&offset=0&total_comments=31" style="color: #9197a3; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"><abbr class="livetimestamp" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153063273614201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message.0" data-shorten="true" data-utime="1422263247" style="border-bottom-style: none;" title="Monday, January 26, 2015 at 1:07am">January 26</abbr></a></span></div>
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Oh yes, cats have those, but spiky! </span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">Indeed,
it's strange that so many people in this culture were taught that the
foreskin blocks sexual sensation by covering the glans, and that it's
too hard to clean under and so gets infected easily.</span></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">Me,
I didn't even know that all the penises I'd ever seen in anatomy
books/real life were circumcised until I was 20. So, I went to the
library and found out the truth from professional sources.
Interestingly, the British and American medical encyclopedias had the
same information but was presented entirely differently.</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$6:0">I
tried to tell the guy who [informed me of the missing anatomy] and he said that the
foreskin has no function other than to cause problems and is thus
vestigial and "evolving away" in humans. Really.</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$10:0">So, no wonder I am surrounded by people who regard foreskins as tumors.</span></span></span></span></span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064397729201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine/posts/10153060068264201?comment_id=10153064397729201&offset=0&total_comments=31" style="color: #9197a3; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"></a></span><br /></div>
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<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=502943483&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064414109201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/kstebleton?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064414109201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-prn2/v/t1.0-1/c6.2.29.29/p34x34/248480_10150205023093484_2521607_n.jpg?oh=46126be45d8156356e1ed58a4b769bd0&oe=556B7388&__gda__=1431048941_07078626e9a229ee3fc1e602b7bf2695" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064414109201:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064414109201:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px 0px 0px 8px; zoom: 1;">
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064414109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064414109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=502943483&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064414109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/kstebleton?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064414109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Kevin Stebleton</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064414109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064414109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">I thought we were surrounded by assholes. Guess it's pretty close.</span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064414109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064414109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064414109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine/posts/10153060068264201?comment_id=10153064414109201&offset=0&total_comments=31" style="color: #9197a3; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">January 26</a></span></div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/1975054_10152308333139201_534222844_n.jpg?oh=8f02753eb85b6850ff88c237ecffdc66&oe=55549966&__gda__=1433316768_67c33ac8bd4f282e01608ff4f40a6a44" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px 0px 0px 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">What assholery plagues you the most?</span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064475999201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine/posts/10153060068264201?comment_id=10153064475999201&offset=0&total_comments=31" style="color: #9197a3; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"></a></span><br /></div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=764213464&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/matthetube?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-1/c2.2.29.29/p34x34/409500_10150683635328465_2004429647_n.jpg?oh=61b2706449fb3bb2a97da8ab149d6283&oe=554D6514&__gda__=1432793245_9c599aacdf490afc486305559259610b" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px 0px 0px 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=764213464&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/matthetube?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Matt Crowley</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">I
wonder how many Christians who object to abortion on the grounds that a
fetus ~might~ feel pain engage in routine circumcision.</span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064479879201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine/posts/10153060068264201?comment_id=10153064479879201&offset=0&total_comments=31" style="color: #9197a3; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"></a></span><br /></div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=616393500&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/dsolaro?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-1/c0.7.32.32/p32x32/1930671_27678743500_9244_n.jpg?oh=179b649a197f13e7dd187ccca4676cf7&oe=555BC054&__gda__=1431354059_6afbb393e5ee62b414191d3d1b598ea8" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px 0px 0px 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=616393500&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/dsolaro?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Denis Solaro</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">I
must say, I was about 8 the day I caught my fore-thingy in the zip of
my jeans. To this day I can't tell if saved me from cutting what's
underneath or if it got caught in the zipper because it was there.</span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine/posts/10153060068264201?comment_id=10153064482009201&offset=0&total_comments=31" style="color: #9197a3; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"><abbr class="livetimestamp" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064482009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message.0" data-shorten="true" data-utime="1422301579" style="border-bottom-style: none;" title="Monday, January 26, 2015 at 11:46am"></abbr></a></span><br /></div>
</div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=764213464&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/matthetube?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-1/c2.2.29.29/p34x34/409500_10150683635328465_2004429647_n.jpg?oh=61b2706449fb3bb2a97da8ab149d6283&oe=554D6514&__gda__=1432793245_9c599aacdf490afc486305559259610b" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px 0px 0px 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=764213464&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/matthetube?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Matt Crowley</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">The
"cleanliness" argument is easily rebutted by realizing that we don't
extract newborn's fingernails because they will eventually need
cleaning.</span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064485529201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine/posts/10153060068264201?comment_id=10153064485529201&offset=0&total_comments=31" style="color: #9197a3; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"></a></span><br /></div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=616393500&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/dsolaro?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-1/c0.7.32.32/p32x32/1930671_27678743500_9244_n.jpg?oh=179b649a197f13e7dd187ccca4676cf7&oe=555BC054&__gda__=1431354059_6afbb393e5ee62b414191d3d1b598ea8" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
</div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px 0px 0px 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=616393500&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/dsolaro?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Denis Solaro</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">I'd
say it puts girls and boys on equal grounds. You don't excise girls to
keep them drier and prevent HIV, you don't think labia is an
evolutionary mistake and take it out.</span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064505454201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine/posts/10153060068264201?comment_id=10153064505454201&offset=0&total_comments=31" style="color: #9197a3; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"></a></span><br /></div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=685711763&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/lee.stevenson?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/10525578_10153064642751764_5768059884587394888_n.jpg?oh=c21dc0bca3765f84fb057b0605082b40&oe=555F5645&__gda__=1431905699_c14ee1b73c697d236149189c79a67031" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R8"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px 0px 0px 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=685711763&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/lee.stevenson?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Lee William Stevenson</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">I
had a long drunken discussion many years ago with a Jewish friend on
the pros and cons of circumcision, we talked for hours drinking cold
beer under the clear warm Greek night sky on the roof of the house we
were living in..</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">I don't remember a blo</span></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">ody
word! only that it was a great evening! But the impression I came away
with was that it was neither here nor there, he seemed happy to be cut,
and I was happy not to be. ( Although some of the circumcision rituals
REALY need looking into!)</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$2:0">At the end of the day, I suppose it's a bit stupid, but for me there are bigger stupidities I can spend my time worrying about.</span></span></span></span></span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064509144201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine/posts/10153060068264201?comment_id=10153064509144201&offset=0&total_comments=31" style="color: #9197a3; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"></a></span><br /></div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064511964201:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=685711763&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064511964201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/lee.stevenson?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064511964201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/10525578_10153064642751764_5768059884587394888_n.jpg?oh=c21dc0bca3765f84fb057b0605082b40&oe=555F5645&__gda__=1431905699_c14ee1b73c697d236149189c79a67031" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R7"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064511964201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064511964201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064511964201:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064511964201:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px 0px 0px 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064511964201:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064511964201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064511964201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064511964201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">( and I have also caught the bloody thing in my zipper, only once! Don't recommend it!)</span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064511964201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064511964201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064511964201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine/posts/10153060068264201?comment_id=10153064511964201&offset=0&total_comments=31" style="color: #9197a3; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"></a></span><br /></div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/1975054_10152308333139201_534222844_n.jpg?oh=8f02753eb85b6850ff88c237ecffdc66&oe=55549966&__gda__=1433316768_67c33ac8bd4f282e01608ff4f40a6a44" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R6"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right">
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<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">It's hard to say, Denis, but then again, whose idea was it to use zippers for pants?!</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">Indeed,
i think the attitude of 'female circumcision is bad and male
circumcision is good', because their anatomy is different, just doesn't
hold up to scientific sc</span></span><span class="_5uzb" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.1" style="padding-right: 3px;">rutiny.<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"></span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">I've
always wondered about that, Matt, esp because so many fundie Christians
claim that circumcision is a Christian tradition. Also, Scientologists,
who are adamant about preventing any sort of suffering during birth due
to fear of thetans implanting themselves in the baby.</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">Yes,
but I think the big fear is getting infections, which isn't really
founded. Especially since girls are far more prone to them and this
culture does not recommend cutting off bits from them. Really, though,
it's a message to boys that they aren't capable of cleaning themselves
and need surgery to fix that.</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064527819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">Lee,
I agree there's a lot worse things to worry about, but that doesn't
stop it from being a serious problem, especially where people are being
taught complete lies about their own bodies just to cover up the damage
that's been done to them.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=685711763&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/lee.stevenson?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/10525578_10153064642751764_5768059884587394888_n.jpg?oh=c21dc0bca3765f84fb057b0605082b40&oe=555F5645&__gda__=1431905699_c14ee1b73c697d236149189c79a67031" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R5"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
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<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0.$right.0.$left">
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=685711763&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/lee.stevenson?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Lee William Stevenson</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Ill
be honest, my background of growing up in the industrial heartland of
the UK in the 70's and 80's didn't expose me to so many circumcised
cocks, ( I seem to recall one or 2 in the showers.. but it was never,
and has never been a "thing" ), and inde</span></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">ed,
without wanting to sound man-slutty, not one of the several partners I
have had over the years ( mostly from the UK with a smattering of
European and perhaps a couple of USA'ns) have ever commented one word on
my foreskin... as I so badley punned earlier in the thread, it really
is "no big thing" , in my life anyway. Perhaps its a cultural / age
group thing?</span></span></span></span></span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064541049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R4"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right">
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<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Also,
Lee, just because some people like being circumcised is not evidence
that they understand what's been done to them. Most people I know who
prefer being circumcised say that the facts about it are just lies, that
the parents know best, that God kn</span></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">ows best, etc.</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">..,but didn't God create foreskins, according to them?</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">Yes,
America started the circumcision practice in the UK in the first half
of the 20th century, but the bad effects of it [and WWII] encouraged that practice
to stop.</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">Also, refer to my post/previous comments/the video for more on the fact that it's a cultural/age group thing. That's all it is.</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">Here
in the US there are girls who would tell you that they won't give you a
blow job unless you have the courtesy of getting circumcised for them.</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$20:0">There is only one group larger than Muslims that circumcises boys, and that is Americans.</span></span></span></span></span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine/posts/10153060068264201?comment_id=10153064552114201&offset=0&total_comments=31" style="color: #9197a3; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"><abbr class="livetimestamp" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064552114201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message.0" data-shorten="true" data-utime="1422304051" style="border-bottom-style: none;" title="Monday, January 26, 2015 at 12:27pm"></abbr></a></span><br /></div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=685711763&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/lee.stevenson?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/10525578_10153064642751764_5768059884587394888_n.jpg?oh=c21dc0bca3765f84fb057b0605082b40&oe=555F5645&__gda__=1431905699_c14ee1b73c697d236149189c79a67031" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R3"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px 0px 0px 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=685711763&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/lee.stevenson?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Lee William Stevenson</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Well, I don't mind giving it a wash, but that's a bit extreme, even if they were REALLY REALLY good!! </span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$2:0">Seriously
though, ( not a state that I easily achieve!), I had thought it was
mostly Jews that deforeskinned their young lads, so I have learned
something today.</span><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">Surprising really, who would have thought that religious dogma or herd medical stupidity would trump over real facts!!!</span></span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064561589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine/posts/10153060068264201?comment_id=10153064561589201&offset=0&total_comments=31" style="color: #9197a3; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"></a></span><br /></div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/1975054_10152308333139201_534222844_n.jpg?oh=8f02753eb85b6850ff88c237ecffdc66&oe=55549966&__gda__=1433316768_67c33ac8bd4f282e01608ff4f40a6a44" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R2"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px 0px 0px 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Exactly,
yes, glad I have gotten my point across. Americans in the late 1800s
were really into genital mutilation in boys and girls as a cure-all...</span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$2:0">...Today, sex hookup websites list this as a
status, and most say 'circumcised'.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">I've heard other girls say "have you ever had sex with a guy who was... UNcircumcised?!" It really is a big deal here.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$6:0"> </span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$6:0">You
can tell by the way people use language: circumcised penises are
commonly considered to just be 'penises', and normal penises are called
'uncircumcised' because they're the outliers. In fact, [looking in many anatomy books, one would never guess of the foreskin's existence]. Like boys are just born
that way!</span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span><br />
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3">
<span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine/posts/10153060068264201?comment_id=10153064641919201&offset=0&total_comments=31&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R2%22%7D"><abbr class="livetimestamp" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message.0" data-shorten="true" data-utime="1422306659" title="Monday, January 26, 2015 at 1:10pm"></abbr></a></span><a class="UFICommentLikeButton" data-hover="tooltip" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$likeCount:0:$action:0" data-tooltip-alignh="center" data-tooltip-uri="/ajax/like/tooltip.php?comment_fbid=10153064641919201&comment_from=692039200&comment_likecount=1&comment_id=10153060068264201_10153064641919201&cache_buster=0" href="https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=10153064641919201" rel="dialog" role="button"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064641919201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$likeCount:0:$action:0.1"><br /></span></a></div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=685711763&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/lee.stevenson?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/10525578_10153064642751764_5768059884587394888_n.jpg?oh=c21dc0bca3765f84fb057b0605082b40&oe=555F5645&__gda__=1431905699_c14ee1b73c697d236149189c79a67031" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R1"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px 0px 0px 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=685711763&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/lee.stevenson?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Lee William Stevenson</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">I
just have to ask... Did you notice any difference with the one you
found? I can honestly say I don't recall any time I have asked a girl
this question... But I would imagine that the extra wrinkles can only
help.. ( perhaps this is why ribbed condoms are popular? Making up for
what the doctor removed?)</span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064746234201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine/posts/10153060068264201?comment_id=10153064746234201&offset=0&total_comments=31" style="color: #9197a3; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"></a></span><br /></div>
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makes a huge difference, and I covered that in comment #6. I abhor most
circumcised penises for the painful reasons I mentioned.</span></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064765034201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064765034201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064765034201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064765034201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153064765034201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">Indeed, ribbed condoms supposedly help make up for circumcision, but in my case they hurt even worse than regular condoms.</span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153066359374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=100000208068569&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153066359374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/frank.bodisch?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153066359374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Frank Bodisch</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153066359374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".jf.1:3:1:$comment10153060068264201_10153066359374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">But Rattzz. Then they won't have to worry about getting certain forms of ear cancer.</span><br />
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This is much better than the reception I got the first time I discussed this when someone brought it up in the Skeptic forum years before. I remember one woman said that neither her husband nor son had complained about being circumcised, so therefore no harm had been done.<br />
` I said that if they don't have the information to know there's anything to complain about, then why would they? After all, there are women who don't complain about not having a clitoris because they are unaware of what they are missing. She didn't reply.<br />
<br />
At one point, I stated that men generally enjoy their foreskins and would never want to have theirs cut off, so therefore, they should be given "the right" to decide about keeping their own erogenous zones.<br />
` This got a harsh argument from one poster, who said that infants should have "the right" to never have to suffer the horrible, horrible experience having a foreskin, and that he was glad to have had that "right".<br />
` Even more, he said that if his foreskin magically reappeared, he wouldn't like it at all, but would not be able to handle the pain of cutting it off, and so would be miserable with it for the rest of his life.<br />
` I asked him how he knew he would feel miserable to have a foreskin if he never had the experience of having one, and in fact didn't even know what one was. He didn't answer.<br />
<br />
As for the Skeptoid mailing list, which Denis mentioned above, I remember that one guy compared non-therapeutic circumcision of a healthy infant to a medical emergency of deciding whether or not to amputate a maimed child's burned-up legs.<br />
` I pointed out that being born with a normal penis is not a medical emergency, and that circumcision in this case would be plastic surgery, not anything to do with medicine. Even so, he kept framing it as "parents need to make medical decisions for their infants". Amazing!<br />
<br />
Speaking of amazing, at The Amazing Meeting 2013, after <a href="http://www.martyklein.com/">Marty Klein's</a> lecture about sexually suppressive cultural practices and propaganda, as well as an ethics talk by Michael Shermer, I overheard one man talking about his own circumcision.<br />
` He was saying that Michael Shermer was right in his moral philosophy -- that you should ask the person how they feel about having something done to them before deciding whether it was right or wrong. He concluded that infant circumcision was good because he was happy to be circumcised.<br />
` So, I tried to tell him what a foreskin was and he didn't believe me. Then he told me that if a foreskin really is the most sensitive part of the penis, that he was glad he didn't have one:<br />
` He said that he didn't like anything to touch his penis, not even a sexual partner, because it was so painfully sensitive. This is a problem which is caused by circumcision, as I covered (har!) in my article.<br />
` Exposing the glans, along with nerve damage caused by the operation, can cause lifelong pain. Foreskin restoration can actually fix this problem simply by <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreskin_restoration">internalizing the painfully sensitive areas</a>.<br />
` (It's odd how <a href="http://forums.menshealth.com/topic/63643898178910374" rel="nofollow">many online forums</a> have discussions on this <a href="http://www.doctorslounge.com/urology/forums/backup/topic-39031.html">debilitatingly painful sensitivity</a> following circumcision, yet the participants don't usually question the procedure, even though they say it is done for reasons that (as I've described in my article), are usually or always bogus.)<br />
` Both this guy and me wanted to ask Marty Klein about this topic, although we couldn't find him. (However, I am planning to email Marty on this topic, so perhaps I will get an interesting response.)<br />
<br />
Although I have gotten flak for trying to correct misconceptions among the skeptic-types, most of them have been curious or supportive towards my efforts. The mixed response is because of cultural ignorance in America.<br />
` I should also mention that an even more exaggerated ignorance occurs in South Korea, where the practice is even more popular. A skeptic resident of South Korea <a href="http://www.worldlibrary.org/articles/prevalence_of_circumcision">sent me this</a> chunk of info on his home culture:<br />
<h4>
<span class="mw-headline" id="South_Korea"></span></h4>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
Virtually no circumcision was performed before the year 1945 as it is
against Korea's long and strong tradition of preserving the body as a
gift from parents.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-Kimetal_45-1"><a href="http://www.worldlibrary.org/articles/prevalence_of_circumcision#cite_note-Kimetal-45">[45]</a></sup> A 2001 study of 20-year old South Korean men found that 78% were circumcised.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-46"><a href="http://www.worldlibrary.org/articles/prevalence_of_circumcision#cite_note-46">[46]</a></sup>
At the time, the authors commented that "South Korea has possibly the
largest absolute number of teenage or adult circumcisions anywhere in
the world. Because circumcision started through contact with the
American military during the Korean War, South Korea has an unusual
history of circumcision."<br />
According to a 2002 study, 86.3% of South
Korean males aged 14–29 were circumcised.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-47"><a href="http://www.worldlibrary.org/articles/prevalence_of_circumcision#cite_note-47">[47]</a></sup>
In 2012, it's the case of 75.8% of the same age group. Only after 1999
has some information against circumcision become available (at the time
of the 2012 study, only 3% of Korean internet sites, using the most the
popular Korean search engine ‘<a href="http://www.worldlibrary.org/articles/Naver" title="Naver">naver</a>’, are against indiscriminate circumcision and 97% are for).<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-Kimetal_45-2"><a href="http://www.worldlibrary.org/articles/prevalence_of_circumcision#cite_note-Kimetal-45">[45]</a></sup>
The authors of the study speculate "that the very existence of
information about the history of Korean circumcision, its contrary
nature relative to a longstanding tradition, its introduction by the US
military, etc., has been extremely influential on the decision–making
process regarding circumcision."<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-Kimetal_45-3"><a href="http://www.worldlibrary.org/articles/prevalence_of_circumcision#cite_note-Kimetal-45">[45]</a></sup>
</blockquote>
Curses be to mid-20th-century American values! And thank you Internet for helping to solve the problem, worldwide. One of the next Facebook posts on this topic was posted to my timeline by Denis Solaro, who is from France.<br />
` The video is one of those College Humor videos where Adam Ruins Everything. It's called <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCSWbTv3hng"><b>The Real Reason You're Circumcised</b></a>, and it's pretty funny, and short -- worth a watch. Adam explains how, if you're circumcised but not Jewish, it's because of our dodgy history.<br />
` Denis asked if that's the <i>only</i> reason, and I answered, "Yes. If it weren't for the Victorian beliefs that
sexual pleasure causes disease, this would not have become an American
tradition. Americans would think it was just as nutty as the Europeans
do." <br />
<br />
In fact, what really triggered me
to go back and finish the big 2013 article was a number of comments, both in the flesh and on Facebook.
However, I would like to thank Jack Ward for being the one to break
the camel's back.<br />
` It was actually on the thread of a budding science professional, who had posted the same College Humor video. Alas, I was at a skeptic's meetup when Jack began to comment, which I saw from the screen of my new smart phone.<br />
<br />
His first comment is a bundle of propaganda about how circumcised penises are culturally perceived as cleaner and healthier. So? Still doesn't make it true, as I explained in my article.<br />
` Also as I explained, the research that shows that circumcised guys get more blowjobs also shows that this is because they need more types of stimulation in order to get themselves off.<br />
` However, the links that Jack posted are priceless:<br />
<ul>
<li><div style="background: #f6f7f8; border: none; line-height: 0.18in; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-right: 0.13in; padding: 0in;">
<span style="border: none; display: inline-block; padding: 0in;"><span style="color: #3b5998;"><span style="text-decoration: none;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><b><a href="https://www.facebook.com/jackjamieward?fref=ufi">Jack
Ward</a></b></span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><span style="color: #141823;"> My
cousin didn't get circumsized and he had to have an emergency one
done because of the
infection. </span></span></span><span style="color: #3b5998;"><span style="text-decoration: none;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><a href="http://www.circumstitions.com/Iowa.html">http://www.circumstitions.com/Iowa.html</a></span></span></span></span><span style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><span style="color: #141823;">And
yes. Women prefer it. Not only that. Gay men do as well. It's seen
as cleaner, neater, and healthier. In fact we have evidence that
shows circumsized men get more blowjobs.</span></span></span></span></div>
</li>
</ul>
<div dir="ltr" id="u_jsonp_3_m" style="background: transparent;">
<ul><div style="background: #f6f7f8; border: none; line-height: 0.18in; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-right: 0.13in; padding: 0in;">
</div>
<div style="background: #f6f7f8; border: none; line-height: 0.18in; margin-bottom: 0.09in; margin-right: 0.25in; margin-top: 0.06in; padding: 0in;">
<span style="border: none; display: inline-block; padding: 0in;"><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="background: transparent;"><a href="http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.circumstitions.com%2FIowa.html&h=zAQGe2436&s=1">Circumcision:
Iowa study - rebuttal</a></span></span></span></span></span></div>
<div style="background: #f6f7f8; border: none; line-height: 0.17in; margin-bottom: 0.09in; margin-right: 0.25in; margin-top: 0.06in; padding: 0in;">
<span style="border: none; display: inline-block; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="background: transparent;"><span style="color: #141823;">An
analysis and rebuttal of a study claiming that women (should) have
their sons circumcised for sexual reasons.</span></span></span></span></span></div>
<div style="background: #f6f7f8; border: none; line-height: 0.11in; margin-right: 0.25in; margin-top: 0.1in; padding: 0in; text-transform: uppercase;">
<span style="border: none; display: inline-block; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><span style="background: transparent;"><span style="color: #9197a3;">CIRCUMSTITIONS.COM</span></span></span></span></span></div>
</ul>
</div>
<div style="line-height: 0.18in; margin-left: 0.13in; margin-right: 0.13in;">
He actually linked to a rebuttal of a small survey in a location of the U.S. where circumcision is more common. This survey does not reflect the cultures in most of the world, and only includes women who had just given birth to a healthy boy.</div>
<div style="line-height: 0.18in; margin-left: 0.13in; margin-right: 0.13in;">
` They were asked some biased questions about their sexual partners and whether or not they chose circumcision for their child. What I found most interesting is the language and cultural bias of the 'Iowa study' authors.<br />
` They actually point out that a man's circumcised penis may be looked at as sexually attractive by others, but never once address how the man may feel about it himself:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
One idea that has been overlooked is that the penis is a sexual
instrument, not just a passageway for urination. <span style="color: #990000;">[<i>The authors fail to follow through on this idea, that it is a sexual instrument that </i>belongs<i>
to a particular person, or that its foreskin is integral to its sexual
function. Their entire focus is on what his mother, who has - we may
hope - no sexual interest in it, thinks about its sexual function.</i>]</span>
For example, circumcision
at puberty in nonliterate cultures is in some ways a sexual recognition
of
the emerging man (Bettelheim, 1954; Money, Cawte, Bianchi, &
Nurcombe, 1970; Kitahara, 1976). The permanent exposure of the glans of
the penis
renders it a sexual tool.
<br />
<span style="color: #990000;">[<i>An accurate observation. And is it not extraordinary that in a </i>literate<i>
society, people might seriously consider surgically modifying the penis
of a baby in order to render it, full-time and life-long, a more
visibly "sexual tool"? Many men might not </i>want<i> their penis looking like a "sexual tool" whenever it is exposed - in the shower with other men, for example.</i>]</span><br />
<br />
...She concluded that circumcision could be an acceptable practice based on
cultural values, and that the health care delivery system could be a more
"perceptive cultural broker" with regard to honoring a society's view of
beauty. <span style="color: #990000;">[<i>Yes, this is a most extraordinary conclusion. In what other realm might a </i>health<i>
care delivery system even dream of "honoring a society's view of
beauty" by performing surgery on a healthy baby, quite regardless of
that person's view of beauty?</i>]</span></blockquote>
The gross statistical flaws and poor controls of this study are pointed out quite thoroughly -- for example that only 45 of the 127 women surveyed were experienced with both circumcised and intact sexual partners.<br />
` On top of that there are inaccurate factual statements, such as that smegma must be cleaned frequently. How did this article even pass peer review?</div>
<div style="line-height: 0.18in; margin-left: 0.13in; margin-right: 0.13in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="line-height: 0.18in; margin-left: 0.13in; margin-right: 0.13in;">
Probably the most ludicrous paragraph of the paper starts with: "While the foreskin of an uncircumcised penis can be retracted, the
circumcised penis exists in exposed beauty whether flaccid or erect." Clearly, the authors have their own sexual tastes!</div>
<div style="line-height: 0.18in; margin-left: 0.13in; margin-right: 0.13in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="line-height: 0.18in; margin-left: 0.13in; margin-right: 0.13in;">
The rebuttal itself concludes with:<br />
<br />
<span style="color: #990000;">[<i>Excluded from this discussion is any reference
to medical ethics, to any erogenous qualities residing in the foreskin
itself - and hence to the sexuality of the person most directly
concerned - or to the human rights of the person whose penis it is. As
mentioned, there is no consideration of risks, complications or any
other negative consequences of circumcision.<br /><br />It seems clear the
authors have their own cultural investment in circumcision, which they
are desperately attempting to rationalise here.<br /><br />
For an adult to even </i>touch<i> a child's genitals in order to satisfy the adult's sexual agenda satisfies most definitions of </i>child sexual abuse<i>. Imagine the above study for a moment - but asking the fathers of girl babies.</i>]</span></div>
<div style="line-height: 0.18in; margin-left: 0.13in; margin-right: 0.13in;">
<br /></div>
<div style="line-height: 0.18in;">
Exactly. If this wasn't creepy enough, Jack's next comment led me to an even creepier revelation:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="border: none; display: inline-block; padding: 0in;"><b>Jack Ward:</b> Let's take a look at the Badger study
in Australia. Where this preference
continues. <span style="color: #3b5998;"><span style="text-decoration: none;"><a href="http://www.circinfo.net/socio_sexual_aspects.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.circinfo.net/socio_sexual_aspects.html</a></span></span></span></blockquote>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" id="u_jsonp_3_o" style="background: transparent;">
<div style="margin-bottom: 0.06in; margin-left: 0.13in; margin-right: 0.13in; margin-top: 0.06in;">
<span style="border: none; display: inline-block; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="background: transparent;"><a href="http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.circinfo.net%2Fsocio_sexual_aspects.html&h=CAQGRgYs0&s=1" rel="nofollow">Circumcision and Socio-Sexual Aspects</a></span></span></span></div>
<div style="line-height: 0.17in; margin-bottom: 0.06in; margin-left: 0.13in; margin-right: 0.13in; margin-top: 0.06in;">
<span style="border: none; display: inline-block; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="background: transparent;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica;">Circumcision
- A circumcised penis was favoured by women for appearance and
hygiene. (Furthermore,...</span></span></span></span></div>
<div style="line-height: 0.11in; margin-bottom: 0.06in; margin-left: 0.13in; margin-right: 0.13in; margin-top: 0.06in; text-transform: uppercase;">
<span style="border: none; display: inline-block; padding: 0in;"><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><span style="background: transparent;"><span style="color: #9197a3;">CIRCINFO.NET</span></span></span></span></div>
</div>
<span style="border: none; display: inline-block; padding: 0in;"><br /><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="color: #9197a3;"> </span></span></span><br />
<span style="border: none; display: inline-block; padding: 0in;">Ah yes, the website of Brian Morris, an unqualified pro-circumcision doctor who has <a href="http://circwatch.org/tag/brian-morris/">created a fake scientist named Pierre LaCock</a> in order to support his claims. After leering at some of the <a href="http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop">Gish Gallop</a> on CircInfo.net, I soon found out more than I ever thought I would learn about this alleged "James Badger".</span><br />
<span style="border: none; display: inline-block; padding: 0in;">` I tried looking for him at the University of Sydney directory, but he wasn't on it. Does he exist? According to <a href="http://circwatch.org/tag/james-badger/">CircWatch</a>:</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="border: none; display: inline-block; padding: 0in;">"</span><a href="http://circleaks.org/index.php?title=Circlist" target="_blank">Circlist </a>(a website
and discussion group for men who sexually fantasize about performing
and receiving circumcisions) identifies James Badger as <a href="http://www.circlist.com/surveys/intropage.html" target="_blank">one of its members and has 6 surveys</a> by Badger on different aspects of circumcision, such as <a href="http://www.circlist.com/surveys/badger-06.html" target="_blank">masturbation</a>, urination, emotions, attitudes, etc."</blockquote>
If that wasn't enough, James Badger seems to be a pen name of someone closely affiliated with Brian Morris (who himself lacks the medical credentials to be authoritatively speaking on circumcision in the first place):<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
"Morris’ book “In Favour of Circumcision” reveals that <a href="http://books.google.com.au/books?id=nThKULDohxsC&pg=PP3&lpg=PP3&dq=in+favour+of+circumcision+morris&source=bl&ots=WjwxmwSJlV&sig=cHn18RZcHkXCKTv0dlZ3-Hob4Bo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fLFgU4i5LIiSlAXllIHoBQ&ved=0CHgQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=168&f=false" target="_blank">James Badger is a pen-name</a> for the purposes of the Forum survey and debate in general....</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
According to Robert Darby, historian interested on the topic of circumcision, <a href="http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=0" target="_blank">James Badger is really Guy Cox</a>. This seems to be supported by Morris’ diverging attribution of the author of the <a href="http://aboutcirc.org/" target="_blank">aboutcirc.org</a> website. It seems ironic then, that Guy Cox, on <a href="http://www-personal.usyd.edu.au/%7Ecox/pdfs/dvp.pdf" target="_blank">his paper about the function of the foreskin</a>,
would quote James Badger’s survey and thank him for authorizing the use
of his data. If they are really the same person, this would be
disrespectful of the general public." </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
Aboutcirc.com has a section for <a href="http://www.aboutcirc.com/books.htm" target="_blank">book review</a>s, and one of the books is called “airport encounter” by James Badger, described as “<i>a
light-hearted story about an Australian choirboy and his friends, this
books follows the life and loves of a group of boys and girls as they
grow from children into teenagers. Circumcision is a major theme as,
naturally, is music. It is quite sexually explicit at times</i>“. </blockquote>
Even crazier is this website, which is owned by Guy Cox (as revealed by his P.O. Box number on the administration page):<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
The website is called <a href="http://www.boyguard.com/" target="_blank">boyguard.com</a>
and offers a product for boy chastity. The purpose of the website seems
to be to promote this product to control children’s sexuality, aided by
“high and tight” circumcisions. </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
The site states: “<i>We are strongly in favour of circumcision for all
boys. (…) If you are considering circumcision for your boy, make sure it
is done properly, with the foreskin completely removed. The glans
(knob) should be completely uncovered and there should be no surplus
skin on the shaft of the penis. Otherwise the hygiene benefits may not
be fully realized. (…) So the skin will stretch to allow for the firmest
erection, and this is the desired outcome – the skin should be
stretched tight when the penis is erect.</i>” </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
It was also “James Badger” who on April of 2013 announced to the <a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Inter-Circ/info" target="_blank">inter-circ Yahoo Group</a> to the existence of the Boyguard website, while pretending not to have any relation to it. </blockquote>
Wow. Besides the fact that the "Badger study" is very poor and full of misinformation, I think this investigation pretty much destroys its credibility.<br />
<br />
Our Facebook commenter Jack Ward then posts some "facts":<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$2:0">Women with circumcised lovers were more likely to reach a simultaneous
climax - 29% vs. 17% of the study population grouped across the orgasmic
spectrum of boxes for ticking labeled "together", "man first", "man
after" and "never c</span></span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">ome";
some ticked more than one box.</span></span></span></span></span></span> <span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">(Could the superior response involve
psychological factors? ... Could it be that more circumcised men have a
better technique? ... Or could other factors be involved?)</span><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$2:0">•
Women who failed to reach an orgasm were 3 times more likely to have an
uncircumcised lover. (These data could, however, possibly reflect
behaviors of uncircumcised males that might belong to lower
socio-economic classes and/or ethnic groups whose attitudes concerning
sex and women may differ from the better-educated groups in whom
circumcision is more common.)</span><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">•
A circumcised penis was favoured by women for appearance and hygiene.
(Furthermore, some women were nauseated by the smell of the
uncircumcised penis, where, as mentioned in another section earlier,
bacteria and other micro-organisms proliferate under the foreskin.)</span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328062205576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">This is basically just some of the tripe on Morris' website. So, of course, I step in...</span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
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<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Sorry I'm having trouble with my phone wrote a huge thing. I should just write a blog post and link to it </span>[which is exactly what I did later!]<br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">I
learned that [foreskins existed] when I was 20 . I was horrified that I
could not find info about them without medical texts....</span></span><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">I am at a skeptics meetup can't really write anyway</span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328234995576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328234995576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328234995576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328234995576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">The
most sensitive part of the penis is the foreskin. It is a terrible
thing to waste, I cannot have sex with a man who is circumcised because
the friction is so severe. And I can't find men in America with a
foreskin. And the misinformation about foreskin in this culture is
sickening, it's not even in a lot of anatomy books.</span></span></span></span></span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328278905576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">Circumcision
had horrified me. It's banned in Calif and Canada and various European cultures
[on the grounds that it is perceived as a form of cruel genital mutilation of helpless infants].</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=702725275&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/jackjamieward?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/10376276_10155073733475276_5386704395131863070_n.jpg?oh=7839f56155e206fbe8522d940d3c9c7a&oe=557898B7&__gda__=1433927947_610c2c02cc2fb59b05b9868ffa538b0d" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left">
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=702725275&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/jackjamieward?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Jack Ward</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I'm from Canada. Trust me its not banned. Nor is it sickening. Nor is it mutilated. Nor is it cruel.</span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328243555576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328243555576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328243555576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328243555576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I feel badly for you Spoony. Never heard of that before. Most women I know prefer circumsized men by far.</span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328285480576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"> </span></span></span></span> </div>
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Wow, he feels "badly"? (An effect of circumcision for sure!) It seems as though he's saying that he feels bad for the fact that I prefer intact penises. As though such a thing is to be looked down upon!<br />
<ul class="UFIList" data-reactid=".20">
<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Damn this phone sucks . Can't type...</span><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">I
was trying to write that circumcision was medicalized in Victorian
america, it spread to a few cultures, but the top two groups that do it
are Muslims and A</span></span><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">mericans. Europeans are horrified by circumcision, they regard it the same as female circumcision, they don't do it.</span><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".3.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328286965576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">It's so sad that people in America don't know what a foreskin is or its function.</span></span></span></span></span></span> </span></span></span></span></span><br />
<br /></div>
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<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=702725275&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/jackjamieward?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/10376276_10155073733475276_5386704395131863070_n.jpg?oh=7839f56155e206fbe8522d940d3c9c7a&oe=557898B7&__gda__=1433927947_610c2c02cc2fb59b05b9868ffa538b0d" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=702725275&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/jackjamieward?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Jack Ward</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">It's
even more sad that we are working hard to respect women with what they
do with their bodies, but we can't respect men for their own choices.</span></span></span></span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328290970576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<br />
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328291125576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328291125576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328291125576:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328291125576:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328291125576:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpt1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/1975054_10152308333139201_534222844_n.jpg?oh=0abe5a8eff5724fd867e373568b584c7&oe=557C2666&__gda__=1438525124_09e51ad3249c3638c71fd627db3ac51e" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328291125576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328291125576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328291125576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328291125576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328291125576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328293415576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328291125576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328293415576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328293415576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328291125576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">How
is holding down a baby and tearing the foreskin off his glans not
cruel? [He didn't choose that...] They develop ptsd, and sometimes
infections, even death or loss of penis. How is
that not cruel?</span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328293415576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"> </span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328293415576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328293415576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328293415576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328293415576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I don't respect people who chop off the most sensitive part of a baby's penis. It is not the parents penis, it's the baby's.</span></span></span></span></div>
</div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328296940576:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328296940576:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328296940576:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpt1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/1975054_10152308333139201_534222844_n.jpg?oh=0abe5a8eff5724fd867e373568b584c7&oe=557C2666&__gda__=1438525124_09e51ad3249c3638c71fd627db3ac51e" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
</div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328296940576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328296940576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328296940576:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328296940576:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328296940576:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328296940576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328296940576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328296940576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328296940576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328296940576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328296940576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">If someone chopped off part if my genitalia I would not respect them, I would sue them</span></span></span></span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328296940576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=702725275&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/jackjamieward?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/10376276_10155073733475276_5386704395131863070_n.jpg?oh=7839f56155e206fbe8522d940d3c9c7a&oe=557898B7&__gda__=1433927947_610c2c02cc2fb59b05b9868ffa538b0d" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=702725275&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/jackjamieward?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Jack Ward</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Okay...
As a man who has everyone he knows (IN CANADA) circumsized, all my
children (3 boys) and the like. I find your comments particularly
ignorant and offensive because you have no idea. You don't want
circumcision. Fine. Don't do it. Please stop making ignorant judgements
about other people's junk.</span></span></span></span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328297135576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<br /></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpt1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/1975054_10152308333139201_534222844_n.jpg?oh=0abe5a8eff5724fd867e373568b584c7&oe=557C2666&__gda__=1438525124_09e51ad3249c3638c71fd627db3ac51e" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I've
studied it for years, medical journals, medical encyclopedias. I
understand it is a cultural practice based on ignorance. They
medicalized it to desensitize penises, the foreskin is the most
sensitive part of the penis.</span><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$2:0">The is practice spread to countries like canada, it is a federal crime to do it in Canada but not many people enforce the law.</span></span></span></span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328307665576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<br /></div>
</div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328311950576:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328311950576:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328311950576:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpt1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/1975054_10152308333139201_534222844_n.jpg?oh=0abe5a8eff5724fd867e373568b584c7&oe=557C2666&__gda__=1438525124_09e51ad3249c3638c71fd627db3ac51e" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328311950576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328311950576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328311950576:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328311950576:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328311950576:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328311950576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328311950576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328311950576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328311950576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328311950576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328311950576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Please
do not make judgments about foreskins; you have never seen one, yet you
assume that foreskins are bad? All guys I know here in the USA are
circumcised, I practically have to find European guys to have sex with. They are
horrified by circumcision</span></span></span></span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328311950576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
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<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328311950576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$likeToggle:0:$MIDDOT:0"> </span></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328318650576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328318650576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328318650576:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328318650576:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328318650576:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328318650576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328318650576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328318650576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328318650576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328318650576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328318650576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I
do know guys here who want their foreskin back. I talked to one guy who
was circumcised as an adult, he lost so much sexual sensation that he
was impotent for six months, made somewhat of a recovery, but sex will
never be as good as when he had the most sensitive part of his penis.</span></span></span></span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328318650576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<br /></div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=702725275&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/jackjamieward?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/10376276_10155073733475276_5386704395131863070_n.jpg?oh=7839f56155e206fbe8522d940d3c9c7a&oe=557898B7&__gda__=1433927947_610c2c02cc2fb59b05b9868ffa538b0d" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R8"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 8px; zoom: 1;">
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=702725275&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/jackjamieward?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Jack Ward</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$0:0">Well
you need to study it some more. You are completely out to lunch on
this. I'm sorry. Take it from someone who knows. You're absolutely
wrong. </span><a class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328329010576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$range0:0" dir="ltr" href="http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/sheryl-saperia/infant-circumcision-canada_b_1646749.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/.../infant-circumcision...</a></span></span></span></div>
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This article basically says, "But what about all those religious people who don't want to be discriminated against for their beliefs? Besides, male circumcision is only as harmful to infants as ear-piercing!"<br />
` Wait -- the most sensitive part of <i>anything</i> is not torn off in ear-piercing -- in fact, no flesh is lost at all -- so the argument does not follow.<br />
` Also, the sexual functions of the foreskin are not mentioned, and problems caused by circumcision <i>are said to be nonexistent</i>, although there are many, as I've discussed in my article. <br />
<br />
I commented back to him in response that there are some doctors in Egypt trying to medically legitimize the cutting off the tiny clitoral foreskin of girls.<br />
` It's not nearly as serious as male circumcision, but I would never do it myself or impose it upon any girl any more than I would force it on a boy.<br />
<br />
Also, how could anyone "know" about foreskins <i>because</i> they are ignorant of what having one is like? It's like saying that you know what it's like to see <i>because</i> you are blind.<br />
<br />The crazy, however, is strong with this one, as is the "you've offended me!" card. This is just as outrageous as some things I've heard religious or woo fanatics say when their beliefs are criticized by others:<br />
<ul class="UFIList" data-reactid=".20">
<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R7"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=702725275&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/jackjamieward?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Jack Ward</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">And
I've never met quite so obvious a case of sexism where a woman is
telling a man what he should be doing with his body before.</span></span></span></span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<br />
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328331105576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$likeToggle:0:$MIDDOT:0"> </span></div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpt1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/1975054_10152308333139201_534222844_n.jpg?oh=0abe5a8eff5724fd867e373568b584c7&oe=557C2666&__gda__=1438525124_09e51ad3249c3638c71fd627db3ac51e" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R6"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0.0.$right">
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<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0.0.$right.0.$left">
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">The
American Medical association, the Canadian Pediatric Society and their
counterparts in other countries don't accept this as a beneficial
practice. It is based on cultural beliefs. If you go to most countries ,
even australia, they won't even bring it up if you're having a baby.</span></span></span></span></div>
</div>
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328337340576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">It's sexist that foreskins are being discriminated against. </span></div>
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</div>
</li>
<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R5"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">If
a man wants to do it to himself, that's fine by me. I am against people doing it to
tiny children who have no idea why they are experiencing such pain, and
have sexual consequences for the rest of their life.</span></span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328341870576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">You really ought to read some medical papers on foreskins.</span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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</div>
</div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R4"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328344785576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328344785576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
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<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328344785576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0"><a class="uiLinkSubtle" data-ft="{"tn":"N"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328344785576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message" href="https://www.facebook.com/MariaMyrback/posts/10155322309760576?comment_id=10155328344785576&offset=0&total_comments=31" style="color: #9197a3; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"><abbr class="livetimestamp" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328344785576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$metadata:0.$timestamp-message.0" data-shorten="true" data-utime="1426648767" style="border-bottom-style: none;" title="Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 8:19pm"></abbr></a></span><br /></div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=702725275&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/jackjamieward?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/10376276_10155073733475276_5386704395131863070_n.jpg?oh=7839f56155e206fbe8522d940d3c9c7a&oe=557898B7&__gda__=1433927947_610c2c02cc2fb59b05b9868ffa538b0d" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R3"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=702725275&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/jackjamieward?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Jack Ward</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328352625576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Like
I said. You don't want it done. Then don't do it to your own husband or
children. Let parents and people do their own thing and stop imposing
your confused beliefs upon them. </span></span></span></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
</ul>
First of all, he didn't notice that I said that I have no problem with a man making his own decision: What's important to me is that other people do not impose partial amputation on someone else's penis.<br />
` Then he says, "Don't do it to your own husband"?! Now I'm really confused -- does he
think it's okay for a woman to force her husband to be circumcised,
as well as her son? How can anyone think this is empowering toward males? <br />
<br />
I had gone well beyond the point of wishing that I knew how to cut and paste links from my new phone -- and especially had wished that I had completed the article that I had started.<br />
` Nevertheless, I felt somewhat offended that, in my attempts to defend men's choices for themselves, he said I was doing the opposite and was therefore sexist!<br />
<ul class="UFIList" data-reactid=".20">
<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R2"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328355095576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328355095576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328355095576:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328355095576:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328355095576:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328355095576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328355095576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328355095576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328355095576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328355095576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328355095576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328355095576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328355095576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328355095576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328355095576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Why do you think I'm sexist? I'm against violence on children. You
seem to be ignorant of most men in the world who are against
circumcision. They have foreskins, they know foreskins are desirable,
they don't believe this propaganda. Are they sexist?</span></span></span></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R1"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328357910576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328357910576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328357910576:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328357910576:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328357910576:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328357910576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328357910576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328357910576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328357910576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328357910576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328357910576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328357910576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328357910576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">Chopping off your own erogenous zones is fine, but I'm against chopping other people's erogenous zones against their will.</span></span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328357910576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328357910576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328357910576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /></span></span></span></span></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R0"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328364150576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328364150576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328364150576:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328364150576:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328364150576:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpt1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/1975054_10152308333139201_534222844_n.jpg?oh=0abe5a8eff5724fd867e373568b584c7&oe=557C2666&__gda__=1438525124_09e51ad3249c3638c71fd627db3ac51e" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
</div>
</li>
<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R0"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328364150576:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328364150576:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328364150576:0.0.$right">
<div class="UFIImageBlockContent _42ef clearfix" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328364150576:0.0.$right.0" style="margin: 0px; overflow: hidden; padding-left: 8px; zoom: 1;">
<div class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328364150576:0.0.$right.0.$left">
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328364150576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328364150576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328364150576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328364150576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328364150576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155328364150576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I have evidence of all this but can't link to it. I'd better go , am missing my skeptic meetup.</span></span></span></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</li>
</ul>
When I finally got home from the meetup, I got online and typed:<br />
<br />
<div>
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<div class="_ohe lfloat" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$left" style="float: left;">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpt1/v/t1.0-1/p32x32/1975054_10152308333139201_534222844_n.jpg?oh=0abe5a8eff5724fd867e373568b584c7&oe=557C2666&__gda__=1438525124_09e51ad3249c3638c71fd627db3ac51e" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a></div>
</div>
</li>
</ul>
</div>
<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$0:0">Jack
Ward, I am amused that you posted an anti-circumcision article from
circumstitions. I suggest you read more of their material:</span><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$3:0" /><a class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$range0:0" dir="ltr" href="http://www.circumstitions.com/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">http://www.circumstitions.com/</a></span></span></span><br />
<div data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329011670576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6">
<div class="_3-8y _2lhm" style="background-color: transparent; margin: 12px 0px 6px;">
<div class="_6m2 _1zpr clearfix _5cwb _4y_8 _pb2" data-ft="{"tn":"H"}" id="u_1v_0" style="background-color: transparent; overflow: hidden; position: relative; z-index: 0; zoom: 1;">
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329118815576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329118815576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1" style="font-size: small;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329118815576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329118815576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329118815576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$0:0">How is cutting this off not harm?</span><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329118815576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329118815576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329118815576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$4:0">"
The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than
the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the
external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the
uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of
the circumcised penis. <b>Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of
the penis. "</b></span><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329118815576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329118815576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$7:0" /><a class="" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329118815576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$range0:0" dir="ltr" href="http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847" rel="nofollow" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847</a></span></span></span></div>
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329119820576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329119820576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329119820576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329119820576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329119820576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$0:0">Have
you ever seen a diagram like this? It compares the sensitivity of circumcised with intact penises.</span><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329119820576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329119820576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329119820576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$4:0">Red
and purple are most sensitive. Where are the red and purple? Do you
understand what this means? Do you see the problem with cutting off the
red and the purple parts?</span></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span>
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1" style="font-size: small;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">As
I've said (and you've ignored this) I don't have a
problem if a man or woman wants to mutilate him or herself -- in any
way. I believe that both men and women should have a right to choose
whether or not to chop off their own most sensitive erogenous zones, or
any other body part.</span><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">I
will stand up for unconsenting children, boys or girls, from having
their foreskins (prepuces) or more removed. I don't discriminate against
baby boys just for being born with normal, healthy genitalia. [Note: I
also don't discriminate against children with abnormal genitalia.]</span><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">Ripping
the foreskin off an infant, which is fused to the glans, and crushing
it, causes lasting emotional distress, changes in pain perception,
PTSD-like symptoms, and permanently reduces penile function. The only
cultures in which sexual partners prefer the circumcised penis is in
cultures WHICH ALREADY DO THIS. In cultures where people do not do this,
they prefer normal intact penises.</span><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">Also,
some men/lesbians gag when it comes to giving women oral sex -- indeed,
women have far wetter and nastier genitalia then men, and are much more
likely to have something pathological growing within.</span></span></span></span><br />
<br />
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1" style="font-size: small;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">In some cultures,
the men prefer the women to be circumcised in some fashion, whether
it's the foreskin or the whole clitoris. Should that be used as a
'reason' to promote circumcision of female infants?</span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1" style="font-size: small;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><br data-reactid=".20.1:3:1:$comment10155322309760576_10155329021925576:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$17:0" /></span></span></span><span style="font-size: small; line-height: 17.8667px;">You gotta be trollin' me... circumcision is one of the big men's rights issues.</span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: small; line-height: 17.8667px;">Someone just sent me this video of this Canadian men's rights activist.</span><br />
<span style="font-size: small; line-height: 17.8667px;">He brings up a lot of scientific findings, from long-term infant reactions, long-term sexual effects, how many infants needlessly die and have other unintended effects such as loss of penis, etc. And of course he mentions female genital mutilation. </span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: small; line-height: 17.8667px;">He also reviews the history of how the religious rite of circumcision became medicalized as an anti-masturbatory practice in Victorian USA. (That spread to a few other countries later on, such as Canada). I think he's got it right on the money, at least with this topic.</span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: small; line-height: 17.8667px;">Watch this video and tell me I'm sexist. Go ahead. Do you think he's got his facts wrong? Do you think he hates men or is trying to protect infants? What do you think his motivations are? </span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: small;"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_klThwMomMo">The Truth About Circumcision</a></span></div>
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<br />
And that, my friends, is what spurred me to finish <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-foreskin-why-is-it-such-secret-in.html">The Foreskin: Why is it such a secret in North America?</a> Immediately, I posted it on Facebook, as well as the comments thread of a video of parents getting their baby tattooed.<br />
` The Facebook user whose thread it was said that she had no idea of all this stuff and: "I read most of that article and I'm blown away. Thanks for the share. I also reposted it and said penis several times." And thus, the fun started.<br />
<br />
I have sent the link to my article to Jack Ward, since he was such a huge inspiration to me, although I'm not expecting any response.<br />
<br />
In closing, I'd like to post some more upbeat/crazy anecdote-type Facebook comments, originally from July 11, 2011.<br />
` It was when I first posted the video <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSM-SkwGEf0">An Elephant in the Hospital</a>, in response to a couple having their adopted son circumcised, allegedly based on Catholic requirements. (Huh?) It only stirred up hatred in them and they never watched it.<br />
` A man from Australia, however, did give it a go. He said...<br />
<ul class="uiList uiUfi focus_target fbUfi" data-ft="{"type":30}"><ul class="commentList">
<li class="uiUfiComment comment_2795814 ufiItem ufiItem"><div class="UIImageBlock clearfix uiUfiActorBlock">
<div class="commentContent UIImageBlock_Content UIImageBlock_SMALL_Content" data-ft="{"type":33}">
<a class="actorName" data-ft="{"type":35}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/user.php?id=536087931" href="http://www.facebook.com/UnaTerra">Matthew McGuigan</a> <span class="commentBody" data-jsid="text">I
watched about 10 minutes of it and got pretty bored. It was like
listening to evolution for beginners. I didn't realise you still did
that crap over there. Good thing for me that I live in a country with a
capital named Darwin I suppose.</span><br />
<div class="commentActions fsm fwn fcg">
<abbr data-utime="1310379757" title="Monday, July 11, 2011 at 3:22am">July 11, 2011 at 3:22am</abbr><br />
<br />
<abbr data-utime="1310379757" title="Monday, July 11, 2011 at 3:22am"><u>I replied:</u> </abbr></div>
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<div class="text_exposed_root text_exposed" id="id_4f0f7d2ca9aed1751762559">
<span class="commentBody" data-jsid="text">And yes... this crap is <span class="text_exposed_show">still
popular over here in bassackwards America, home of many
foreskin-phobes. That's why most of the guys didn't raise their hands at
the beginning...<br />...A girl I know who was terrified of
foreskins said that she had sex with a French guy, and when I told her
that he would likely have a foreskin, she looked horrified and told me
it was too dark to have seen, and said she was glad she didn't see any
foreskin and never wanted to see one.<br />` I told her that foreskins weren't all that bad and she said <b>she didn't want guys to have them</b>
because they grossed her out. I told her that wasn't fair because
they're a major erogenous zone and she said, "But as long as you cut it
off a baby, they don't feel a sense of loss and don't get upset over
it, so that makes it okay."<br /><br />Yes, really.<br /><br />Later on, I [was
having a long conversation with] two other girls who hadn't met one
another beforehand and one of them said, "Have you ever had sex with
an... UNcircumcised guy?" Like it was so bizarre! And I sort of gave
them this lecture, and they both came up with the same justification:<br />`
"When a baby is born handicapped, it doesn't know any better, they
grow up not knowing what it's like not to be that way. It's not really
bad being handicapped, it's just different. It's okay to be that way.
So, as long as you cut a boy's foreskin off before he knows what it's
like to have one, that makes it okay too."<br /><br />So yes, we still have
this crap over here because of this idiocy going around, and even
weirder stuff than that. I highly recommend Penn and Teller's
Circimcision episode for the revelation of more pathetic ignorance
going on here, and dick jokes:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2ulSYXE-8M" rel="nofollow nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/<wbr></wbr>watch?v=c2ulSYXE-8M</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBXm_N-Fhe8&feature=related" rel="nofollow nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/<wbr></wbr>watch?v=OBXm_N-Fhe8&feature<wbr></wbr>=related</a><br /><br />Yay for Darwin, BTW.</span></span></div>
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<abbr data-utime="1310445408" title="Monday, July 11, 2011 at 9:36pm">July 11, 2011 at 9:36pm</abbr> ·</div>
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<a class="actorName" data-ft="{"type":35}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/user.php?id=536087931" href="http://www.facebook.com/UnaTerra">Matthew McGuigan</a> <span class="commentBody" data-jsid="text">It's
rarer over here in guys under 40. Really rare in under 20s now. It
used to be, "the family must have a matching set of penises." But
that's changed now, and you have to site religious grounds to get it
done (in general, but theres always exceptions)</span><br />
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<abbr data-utime="1310470508" title="Tuesday, July 12, 2011 at 4:35am">July 12, 2011 at 4:35am</abbr> · </div>
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<a class="actorName" data-ft="{"type":35}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/user.php?id=692039200" href="http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=692039200">Spoony Quine</a> <br />
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<span class="commentBody" data-jsid="text">Interesting! I'm glad things have changed. Over here, there's still a lot of 'matching penises' stuff going on.</span><br />
<span class="commentBody" data-jsid="text">`
Also, there's so many people who think that normal, intact penises are
ugly and just don't want to even look at them, even if <span class="text_exposed_show">it's
on their child, so they 'fix' it. There are also literally guys
getting rejected by women BECAUSE they have a foreskin! And they [the
women] don't think that's shallow at all, they think it's rational!<br /><br />Speaking
of religious grounds, I used to live behind a urology clinic and one
day I was walking my cat in the back alley and this lady with her four
year old son come walking up and she says, "Hi, my other son's being
circumcised."<br />` I was like WTF? I asked why and she repeated over
and over in this dreamy voice, "It's okay, we're all different." And
then she started telling me about how open-minded she is and how much
she finds that religions are interesting, especially this woman she met
who believed in 'the scarab beetle'.<br />` She said that she had gotten
the son in hand circumcised when she converted to Born Again
Christianity, saying that it's a religious requirement, which she said
surprised her, and that now it's the baby's turn. THEY didn't convert,
because they were too young [to understand what religion is], but she
imposed that on them! No doubt she brought him outdoors because the baby
was screaming his head off.<br />` I explained to her a bunch of things
about circumcision and she agreed to look all that stuff up, and as she
was walking away, she said, "I understand what you mean about what if
he converts and doesn't want to be circumcised anymore, but I believe
that God will heal him up."<br />` Really. Like... REALLY. As Evan Bernstein has said to similarly bizarre stories I've told him, "Wow... just wow...."</span></span></div>
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Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com19tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-5618053325321889982015-03-13T20:57:00.000-07:002015-06-14T19:32:09.654-07:00Skeptical Fallout from "Secular Heresy"Who here disagrees with the following statements?:<br />
<br />
Just because someone can kill you for disobedience does not mean that their authority over you is somehow "valid": Does the mugger have authority over you because he's got a gun and wants your wallet? What if he donates the money to a school? Does that make it okay to steal from you?<br />
` Just because someone has been coerced into doing something, it doesn't mean that anyone has had the "right" to coerce them. It simply means that they were coerced. Is that simple to understand?<br />
<br />
A relevant example of the logical fallacy called Argument from Force would be: "We're right because we will revoke your privileges if you disagree." Another one is, "Our god's laws apply to you because we force everyone to comply."<br />
` A different logical fallacy, called Argument from Consequences, goes, "I know that Santa Claus has been here because there's presents under the tree." Or, in keeping with my theme here, "we have already punished people for breaking our rule; therefore this rule applies to you."<br />
` Note: The morality of these actions is another issue, which is why punishment for violence or theft <i>(mala in se)</i> is a different matter than punishment for drug possession or parking violation <i>(mala prohibita)</i>.<br />
<br />
That was essentially my point in a previous article <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2015/03/anatomy-of-secular-heresy.html">Anatomy of a Secular Heresy</a>. In it, I argued that laws cannot apply, period, because governmental authority is not based on facts and evidence. Instead, it is based on violent coercion, the opinions of dead lawyers, and propaganda.<br />
` Rather than voluntary reciprocity and win-win outcomes, the violence at its core creates an abusive relationship between the government and the governed.<br />
<br />
When so-called government authorities are asked for evidence that laws apply to people living on the land, they don't even attempt to provide any. Instead, they either stay silent, issue threats, or spew logical fallacies, distortions, and platitudes on par with such famed shysters as Duane Gish, the young earth creationist for which the <a href="http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop">Gish Gallop</a> is named.<br />
` Marc Stevens, which I mentioned in my article, has won this kind of debate in front of courts, because no one could provide evidence that the law applies to him. The burden of proof is on the lawyers, judges, etc. to provide evidence that the laws apply -- and even they fail at this.<br />
<br />
Rules are a good thing, in my book -- the problem is that people are initiating force in the name of the state, an assumption that's not valid. The state is an abstraction that does not correspond to anything that exists outside of people's imaginations and beliefs -- it is fictional. Even if it did exist, that would not in itself be evidence that laws apply.<br />
` Acting as though it is real does not make it real any more than acting as though gods exist mean that they do exist, much less have authority over people's lives. And so, just saying that laws apply to people because they believe in it, or because they live within the imaginary borders of a fictitious state, is not evidence that the laws apply.<br />
<br />
Atheists of course understand that one cannot break the laws of a deity (fictional entity) if that deity does not exist. They also understand that if nutball church leaders, Scientologists, ISIS, etc. turn on them for heresy, that does not in any way validate any presumed religious authority.<br />
` Besides Antarctica, there is no land one can escape to in order to avoid people with guns imposing laws upon them. So, it isn't a matter of 'just move somewhere else' -- it can't be done, unless you can somehow support yourself in a frozen wasteland.<br />
<br />
My point was that the world's governmental "authorities" have no evidence to back up their position of power. Because of this, they must use the initiation of force and beguiling legalese to confuse dissenters. Therefore, the relationship between the rulers and the ruled is based on abuse and parasitism, not evidence, much less respect or cooperation.<br />
` I did not propose a solution to this problem, other than to mention that it is possible to use private companies for emergency services and to build roads, schools, etc., without coercing people to pay for them. After all, who builds the roads? People do.<br />
` Saying that the state builds roads is like saying that God builds churches. The difference is where the money comes from: At the point of a gun, or a voluntary agreement?<br />
<br />
For the purposes of my argument, however, it is not important <i>whether it is possible</i> to be governed voluntarily, based on agreement rather than coercion. My argument was that government authority is grounded in abuse rather than evidence, and it is invalid because it is unproven by those who assert its validity.<br />
` Importantly, there is no possible way to vote for someone who can end this abuse, since by definition, the system is based on it. You can only vote for rulers who aren't as abusive as the ones before, rather than voting for leaders who will end this abuse altogether.<br />
<br />
I suppose I should have made these points more explicit before inviting Skeptic-type people to try to poke holes in my reasoning via Facebook. I can at least say <a class="profileLink" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1319910916&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:0.0.$right.0.0.0.$range0:0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/luc.vandecasteele.5" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; text-decoration: none;">Luc Vande Casteele</a><span data-reactid=".37.1:0.0.$right.0.0.0.$text1:0:$0:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">, </span><a class="profileLink" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=769140236&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:0.0.$right.0.0.0.$range1:0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/vincelynch" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; text-decoration: none;">Vince Lynch</a><span data-reactid=".37.1:0.0.$right.0.0.0.$text2:0:$0:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"> and </span><a class="profileLink" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=100000543504197&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:0.0.$right.0.0.0.$range2:0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/robertjschryvers" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; text-decoration: none;">Robert von Schryvers</a> 'liked' my article on Facebook, and others told me they agreed with it.<br />
` I posted this article on Facebook in order to get feedback, but was not prepared for the sheer amount of logical fallacies which came with it. I found it to be quite instructive as far as what distortions to address before inviting people to critique the argument. Here are the comments in all their glory, plus additional commentary from me:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1228198789&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/johnoco?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><img alt="" class="img UFIActorImage _54ru" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$left.0.0" src="https://scontent-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hprofile-xfa1/v/t1.0-1/c2.2.28.28/p32x32/200693_4407746551647_687615534_n.jpg?oh=6f1be648701b7af469922a96fa0088f2&oe=558E6703" style="border: 0px; display: block; height: 32px; width: 32px;" /></a><a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1228198789&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/johnoco?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: inline !important; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0" style="font-size: x-small; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"></span></a><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0" style="font-size: x-small; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1228198789&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/johnoco?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">John Ohannesian</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1" style="font-size: x-small; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">I agree with much of this in theory, but that is what it is, an idea about reality.</span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIFirstComment UFIFirstCommentComponent UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0" style="border-top-color: rgb(225, 226, 227); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 1px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 8px 0px 4px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;">An idea about 'reality'. What does that mean? Reality consists of concrete matter, not ideas in people's imaginations. My idea is to ask for facts and evidence rather than base my decisions on hearsay.</li>
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
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<li class="UFIRow UFIFirstComment UFIFirstCommentComponent UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0" style="border-top-color: rgb(225, 226, 227); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 1px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 8px 0px 4px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: x-small;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">People have a consensus view of reality we operate with and if something has representatives and power it isn't non-existent, at least to itself, and therein lies the r</span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">ub, as you stated, one can be in a lot of trouble if one doubts another's realness.</span></span></span></span></span></span></li>
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<ul class="UFIList" data-reactid=".37" style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">
<li class="UFIRow UFIFirstComment UFIFirstCommentComponent UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0" style="border-top-color: rgb(225, 226, 227); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 1px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 8px 0px 4px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;">They're not representatives in power, they're just people playing roles. Like priests, their "authority" is not legitimate. I don't recognize it because there is nothing to recognize. I'm not anti-government for the same reason why I'm not anti-god or anti-leprechaun -- there's nothing to be against.</li>
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
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<li class="UFIRow UFIFirstComment UFIFirstCommentComponent UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0" style="border-top-color: rgb(225, 226, 227); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 1px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 8px 0px 4px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: x-small; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">It seems like another form of dehumanization to not work with common reality and expect others to also go along with a theoretical concept when a concrete fact lies in front of one.</span></li>
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<ul class="UFIList" data-reactid=".37" style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">
<li class="UFIRow UFIFirstComment UFIFirstCommentComponent UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153145594274201:0" style="border-top-color: rgb(225, 226, 227); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 1px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 8px 0px 4px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;">That is like saying that it's dehumanizing not to work with the idea of slavery, back when it was considered "common reality". Of course, slavery was never part of reality, it was just something that people did to one another. It was a relationship with made-up roles -- there is no such thing as slave and master, just people who are able to force other people to do what they want.</li>
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
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Certain individuals with military power invented them as an excuse and justification to control people. They are imaginary constructs, not an invention like a clock, therefore that means they don't exist. If there's no people to imagine a country, what happens to it?<br />
<br />
Of course, this isn't the response I actually put on Facebook, that's below:</div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold;"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;">Spoony R Quine</a> </span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">John -- I'm not sure what you mean about dehumanization. I think it is dehumanizing to </span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">be treated as though the government can't trust you and needs guns to coerce you to do what they say.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">Making states up does mean that states don't exist. The Inquisition shows concrete results, people once had to bow to the church or be killed. Or even be killed anyway. God has never had to exist for it to happen.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$6:0">Yes, people's idea of god existed, but ideas are not the real thing, they are "the matrix".</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146738009201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$10:0">I vex you because I like you.</span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146346099201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=764213464&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146346099201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/matthetube?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146346099201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Matt Crowley</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146346099201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146346099201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">"One of the most important things I've ever learned is that the map is not the territory -- we eat the food, not the menu."</span><br />
<span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146346099201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146346099201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146346099201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">"In reality, nature is the only thing that we know exists -- matter and energy. Abstractions do not exist in material reality."</span></span><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146346099201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146346099201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146346099201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146346099201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146346099201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$4:0">Yes, these are true statements. They fall within the branch of philosophy known as "ontology" which is the study of existence. The sorts of issues you address have been debated for thousands of years, quite formally by the Greeks. If you want examples of the reification fallacy, look into "Platonic Realism." </span><br data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146346099201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146346099201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146346099201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$8:0">While the philosophical insight you have discovered is probably true, it's only the tip of the iceberg as far as philosophy is concerned. Good luck on future endeavors. </span></span></span><br />
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Red herring -- that was not my point. The point is that because states are imaginary, governmental authority doesn't rest upon anything. It's a scam. You give us some money, we will spend it how we like to spend it, and you may get some kickbacks if you get plenty of fiber in your diet, etc.<br />
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1061027523&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/ben.radford.58?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Ben Radford</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$text0:0:$0:0">John and </span><a class="profileLink" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=764213464&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$range0:0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/matthetube" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Matt</a><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"> are correct; the things you claim "do not exist," such as countries and governments, do indeed exist. The same can be said of corporations: there is no physical entity called Apple or Toyota; it is instead a network of people working for </span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">a common purpose under commercial guidelines. That doesn't mean that corporations don't exist.</span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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Actually, it does. Corporations and governments do not exist in the universe, persisting independently of the imagination. They are, by definition, legal fictions -- emphasis on <i>fiction</i>.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">The claim that that "the government is just an abstraction, largely enforced by lying sociopaths with weapons" is demonstrably false; the city I live in, Rio Rancho, has a government, and is not "enforced by lying sociopaths with weapons" in fact most of their enforcement is by bored cubicle gov't office workers pushing paper.</span></li>
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<ul class="UFIList" data-reactid=".37" style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Okay, so he is literally saying that there is a government <i>because</i> there is a government. Circular reasoning, anyone? Indeed, if those government cubicle paper-pushers didn't have lying sociopaths and police, with real weapons, to enforce their opinions, then they wouldn't have any power.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">Government authority is not "pure fiction," as you claim; government has a very real authority, and it is based on collective social agreements about what the laws are, and each person can choose, to some extent, whether to be subject to those laws.</span></li>
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No they can't. Next time you are pulled over for some stupid shit, tell the cop "I choose not to be subject." Even if it were a collective social agreement, that's called tyranny by majority, or Argument from Popularity. There's still no evidence to back up the claims to authority.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146370394201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">If you don't like them, you can move, you can emigrate to a different country with different laws, or do what the Romany do and lead a nomadic lifestyle. Laws are created by people to be enforced on people; the public has the power to overturn laws they see as unjust (anti-marijuana laws, anti-gay marriage laws, etc. etc.).</span></li>
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And how many people are in prison from these unjust laws? It didn't work for them -- that's magical thinking: There's no place on earth to go. Besides, why should I have to leave? Why can't they just leave me alone?<br />
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146392539201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=100000543504197&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146392539201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/robertjschryvers?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146392539201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Robert von Schryvers</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146392539201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146392539201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146392539201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146392539201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146392539201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146392539201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Oh cool, a challenge. This will be fun, let’s unpack this:gish gallop:</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146392539201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">[He then proceeds to do so, but I think I've got it handled here in this post.]</span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146445494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1061027523&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146445494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/ben.radford.58?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146445494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Ben Radford</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146445494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146445494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146445494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146445494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146445494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146445494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">You referenced Native American tribes in your piece, but a tribe only exists in the same way that a country or a government or a company exist--not as a discrete physical entity but as a collective agreement or understanding. That doesn't make it ficti</span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146445494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146445494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146445494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">onal. Tribe boundaries are fluid, just like governments (hence the phrase "quasi-governmental" agencies), and may include members from outside a particular ethnic group, so an outsider may become part of the tribe, in the same way that a tribe member may lose status in that tribe (such as ostracism/banishment or in the case of countries, being stripped of citizenship). None of this means that countries or tribes don't exist.</span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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Yes it does. Citizens don't exist, neither do tribal members.<br />
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In other words, it is based on opinion. A collective agreement is a collection of opinions. That's not evidence. You may as well say that God's authority is not a fiction because it is derived from collective agreement of the followers. Just try disagreeing once and see how much you matter as part of the "collective agreement".</div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Ben, corporations are legal fiction, they most certainly do not exist as entities. Their evidence is 'people doing stuff'. In religion, the evidence for deities is also people doing stuff.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$2:0">You say your city has a government. There's also no such thing</span></span><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"> as a city in the same way that there is no such thing as a forest. Trees and other interlocking parts exist, but 'forest' is an abstraction.</span><br data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$2:0">Cities and forests are abstractions that correspond to reality. Governments are abstractions that don't correspond to anything.</span><br data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">As far as lying sociopaths with weapons, I am talking about politicians, police officers, etc. try telling them that the state doesn't exist and you will see how they lie and attack you. Did you see the Gish gallop filled video in my article?</span><br data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">True, you can move from one farm to another, but that doesn't mean you can escape people's beliefs in laws. Everywhere you go, you risk getting your head blown off for not obeying.</span><br data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">You can overturn laws, but that's like saying that you can overturn Pinocchio. I find that simply not believing that anyone has any authority over me at all is 100% accurate, as long as no one is there to physically threaten me for disobeying. Do your parents have authority over you, or are you a grown man who is capable of making his own decisions? The only time I bow to authority is when they have a gun and I don't want to get shot.</span><br data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">I didn't say that tribes exist, nice try, Ben. Yes it does mean tribes don't exist. All groups are fictional and imaginary, only the people are real. Just because it is written does not mean it is real. The word of god is written down, does that mean that it's really the word of god?</span><br data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146797384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$20:0">Collective agreement, eh? I don't agree to abide by any governmental laws, anywhere, ever. So, i am not part of any such collective agreements.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146461354201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=764213464&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146461354201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/matthetube?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146461354201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Matt Crowley</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146461354201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146461354201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146461354201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146461354201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146461354201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Ontology 101: Things that are not materially real can have different ontological status. A tetrahedron is an abstraction, a Leprechaun is a fiction. Governmental authority is an abstraction, not a fiction.</span></span></span></span></div>
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According to the internetz, fiction is: "invention or fabrication as opposed to fact." Or even "a belief or statement that is false, but that is often held to be true because it is expedient to do so."<br />
` Abstractions are not real; they don't exist. Narnia doesn't exist because it does not persist in spacetime. If we said it existed, would that mean it exists? It doesn't matter whether we live our lives by a fiction or not -- it is still imaginary. </div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146488559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=100000543504197&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146488559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/robertjschryvers?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146488559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Robert von Schryvers</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146488559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146488559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146488559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146488559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146488559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146488559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">How specifically is Governmental authority an abstraction? Is it not a claim much like the claims of authority of Sharia law or the Bible, just an assertion by people? What evidence exists for that claim independent of personal opinion or 'because</span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146488559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146488559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146488559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$0:0"> we said so'?. Much like the number three is an abstraction of a specific quantity in reality, that quantity persists without the abstraction of three, there will be a quantity relationship of 'three apples' even if there was no human in existence to abstract the idea of three, how so the claims of authority of people? What is the ontological status of 'because I, or we said so'? see </span><a class="" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146488559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$range0:0" dir="ltr" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_of_the_mind" rel="nofollow" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_of_the_mind</a></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<span class="_3c21"><a href="http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FObject_of_the_mind&h=FAQEW0KlW&s=1" rel="nofollow" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s ease-in-out; color: #141823; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none; transition: color 0.1s ease-in-out;" target="_blank">Object of the mind - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</a></span></div>
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<span class="_3c21">An object of the mind is an object which exists in the imagination, but which, in the real world, can only be represented or modeled. Some such objects are mathematical abstractions, literary concepts, or fictional scenarios.</span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146529434201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=100000543504197&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146529434201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/robertjschryvers?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146529434201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Robert von Schryvers</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146529434201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146529434201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146529434201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146529434201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146529434201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Mary, if that was so, who (what) is asking that question?</span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146529434201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146540409201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=100000543504197&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146540409201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/robertjschryvers?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146540409201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Robert von Schryvers</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146540409201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146540409201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146540409201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146540409201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146540409201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">what do you mean by nature of matter? and why is a consensus important?</span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146540409201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">If Mary loses a finger is she any less Mary? Or is Mary intact?</span></div>
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146550459201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146550459201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=100000543504197&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146550459201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/robertjschryvers?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146550459201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Robert von Schryvers</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146550459201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146550459201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146550459201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146550459201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146550459201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Matt are you conflating physical laws (properties of space time)with legal opinions (because we said so)? Like if legislature deemed the speed of light was not 299 792 458 m / s on Sundays it would change?</span></span></span></span></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146550459201:0" style="margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">Anyway, this is Spoony's thread, I'll let her play fallacy whack-a -mole with it as she's smart as heck, and needs practice to get her arguments tight.</span></li>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146715724201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=764213464&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146715724201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/matthetube?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146715724201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Matt Crowley</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146715724201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146715724201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span></span><br />
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146488559201:0" style="margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="background-color: transparent; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">"How specifically is Governmental authority an abstraction?"</span></li>
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<br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146537049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;" />
<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146537049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">Because it consists of a set of laws. Both "sets" and "laws" are abstractions.</span></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146488559201:0" style="margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;">Government does not consist of a set of laws, it consists of opinions backed by threats. That's what "law" means.</li>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146488559201:0" style="color: #141823; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="_6lz _6mb ellipsis" style="color: #9197a3; font-size: 11px; line-height: 11px; overflow: hidden; text-overflow: ellipsis; text-transform: uppercase; white-space: nowrap;">
<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146537049201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0" style="color: #141823; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;"> </span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146605254201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3.$likeToggle:0:$MIDDOT:0" style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">·</span><span style="color: #141823; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;">"Matt are you conflating physical laws (properties of space time)with legal opinions (because we said so)? Like if legislature deemed the speed of light was not 299 792 458 m / s on Sundays it would change?"</span></span></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146605594201:0" style="color: #141823; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="clearfix" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146605594201:0.0" style="zoom: 1;">
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<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146605594201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146605594201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146605594201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146605594201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">A legal law can be expressed as a condit</span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146605594201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">ional statement about human affairs. All conditional statements are abstractions. "IF you don't pay your taxes THEN the state will seize your property and/or arrest you" is a conditional statement. In a sense it's a physical law, albeit only insofar as humans are subsumed under the laws of physics.</span></div>
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<ul class="UFIList" data-reactid=".37" style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">So, a legal law is only sort of real? In a sense, grapes are birds, insofar as they're multicellular organisms. Legal laws can be expressed as conditional statements, but that's not what they are. How a thing can be expressed and what a thing is are two different things -- the map is not the territory.</ul>
<ul class="UFIList" data-reactid=".37" style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">` To say that because a song can be expressed as an idea, that does not mean that all ideas are songs.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146605594201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146605594201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146605594201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">One can substitute "government" for "university" in Ryle's example of a category mistake:</span></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146715724201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146715724201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">"The term "category-mistake" was introduced by Gilbert Ryle in his book The Concept of Mind (1949) to remove what he argued to be a confusion over the nature of </span></span><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146715724201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146715724201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146715724201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$0:0">mind born from Cartesian metaphysics. Ryle alleged that it was a mistake to treat the mind as an object made of an immaterial substance because predications of substance are not meaningful for a collection of dispositions and capacities.</span></span></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146605594201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146715724201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146715724201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".12.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146715724201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$2:0">The phrase is introduced in the first chapter.[2] The first example is of a visitor to Oxford. The visitor, upon viewing the colleges and library, reportedly inquired “But where is the University?"[3] The visitor's mistake is presuming that a University is part of the category "units of physical infrastructure" or some such thing, rather than the category "institutions", say, which are far more abstract and complex conglomerations of buildings, people, procedures, and so on."</span></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823;"><span class="_3c21"><a href="http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCategory_mistake&h=cAQF_vEOk&s=1" rel="nofollow" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s ease-in-out; color: #141823; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none; transition: color 0.1s ease-in-out;" target="_blank">Category mistake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</a></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823;"><span class="_3c21">A category mistake, or category error, is a semantic or ontological error in which things belonging to a particular category are presented as if they belong to a different category,[1] or, alternatively, a property is ascribed to a thing that could not possibly have that property. An example is the…</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823;"><span class="_3c21">EN.WIKIPEDIA.OR</span></span></div>
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A university consists of people doing stuff, sometimes in university buildings. Universities as objects or entities in themselves do not exist.<br />
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=539962723&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/scot.bastian?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Scot Bastian</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Spoony, I have two basic objections to your argument. 1) Just because something is imagined, invented, or created does not mean it doesn't exist. </span></span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">A couple of simple examples: it is estimated that the universe came into existence about 15 billion years </span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">ago. It exists. 2) Property lines delineate the borders between my land and my neighbors. They are arbitrary, but not fictional.</span></span></span></div>
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Property lines are not arbitrary, in that they have a particular reason to be created, yet they are fictional, in the sense that they only exist as ideas. If there were no minds to think of them, they would not persist. They do not exist independently of minds. They do not have an independent being-ness in time-space.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">2) Government serves a very real function of protecting people and property.</span></li>
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That is not an argument over whether it exists, that's an argument over whether it should exist. That's like when my one ex-roommate would argue that we need God for morality. Or that I should want to believe in God because then I could be saved for all eternity.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">For example, if I was attacked without provocation I would call the police, and, I would hope, that they would come, with guns, and enforce my rights to go about my business unimpeded.</span></li>
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So, this is based on the assumption that we need to have a state in order to have people providing security services, which is demonstrably false. How many security firms are there that have nothing to do with the state? States build roads as God builds churches -- in other words, they don't. It's just people.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146602374201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">Government also serves to organize our collective concerns to provide solutions: Building roads, courts, airports, national parks, etc. This is not a defense of the excesses of government control, of course, but for some problems, the best, and most viable, solution is a group effort.</span></li>
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Thus implying that group efforts, such as Boeing, Microsoft, Apple, Starbuck's etc. could not exist without a state. It's just people doing stuff.</div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Matt, how do you know that governmental authority is not a fiction? All I have to do is say that laws do not apply to me, and they do not -- but only because they never applied in the first place.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">Mom: you are indeed real and solid, whether I believe you are there or not!</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">Scot, wtf? The universe is not something we made up.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$10:0">Property borders are fictional, you forget that you are only pretending that they are real. You can also pretend that God is real and then forget that you are pretending and declare him to be real. That's called faith. Doesn't mean that God is real.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">Scot, just because people of the church may protect others, or kill others, depending on the situation, that does not make the authority of God real. Your examples of calling the police, building roads, etc is simply a logical fallacy called argument from consequence.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$14:0">I never argued that a group effort is not the best. As I said in my article, we can do all these wonderful things without belief in government.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$18:0">Matt again: Weasel language and word salad do not make legal laws in any way like physical laws. I cannot break physical laws because they control me.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$20:0">In a very real way, I cannot sin because biblical laws don't exist, in the same way that I cannot hate God because God doesn't exist.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$21:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$22:0">Legal laws are so far outside of my reality tunnel that it is similarly meaningless to speak of them as though they have any real bearing on me. I can't break legal laws because there are none to break.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$23:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$24:0">I can't disobey Allah either for the same reason. If you want to chop off my head because I don't recognize Allah as real, that's your problem, it doesn't in any way prove that Allah exists.</span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146850369201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1408806434&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/gpeterson1?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Gary Peterson</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Spoony...Reification is a problem when it promotes miscommunication. This leads to confusing perfectly good ideas and words with existing things. In my field, words like the “mind” or “personality,” are fine as long as it is understood they do not ref</span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">er to things like a piece of paper or something that is found in your pockets, or a ghost in the brain. Such ideas, concepts, yes abstractions, do have good uses however, and I would argue, they do refer meaningfully and appropriately to behaviors, preferences, events, thoughts, etc., that are linguistically valid. You seem to recognize the problem of reification but then use it to create a straw-man argument. If the government cannot be said to exist like my pen or a piece of paper, it can only be an abstraction and must not have meaningful use or refer to anything “real.”</span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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Abstractions can be meaningful and useful, like 'north', 'three', 'red' or 'forest', but that doesn't make them real.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">Unless those birds stop at the border and immediately turn around, there can be no meaningful use of the term border, boundary, etc.</span></span></span></span></span></span></li>
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No -- meaning is created by us, reality is not. I never said that the abstraction of the state is not meaningful, I am claiming that there is no evidence that it does exist. I'm also claiming that it is a harmful idea.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">This implies you are actually still clinging to the desire to see what’s “real” only as a physical thing.</span></li>
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The fact that I don't believe in God must be because I'm clinging to the desire that the spirit world doesn't exist either, right? Or maybe I just believe that based on evidence.</ul>
<ul class="UFIList" data-reactid=".37" style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">` You see, he's accused me of offering a straw man, and his evidence is to offer a straw man of his own.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">You then set up an “either-or” argument that pre-determines your rejection of such concepts. If any idea or something has no physical reality then it is not real, meaningful, and can be dismissed even as spirituality might.</span></li>
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What is "meaningful" and "real" are separate questions. People can find meaning in non-real things, that's not the point I'm trying to make.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">I think the problem is you embrace reification. You expect a government or geo-political entity to be physically real? If it’s not, then you dismiss reasonable uses of the term? </span></li>
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Assuming he meant the problem is that I <i>don't</i> embrace reification, that's like saying the problem is that I don't embrace faith, or fallacies. I don't expect a geo-political entity to be physically real -- the problem is that people in power assert that the state is 'real' without evidence.</ul>
<ul class="UFIList" data-reactid=".37" style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">` And what does "reasonable uses" mean?</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">When you ascribe such negative and emotional characteristics to government (violence and sociopathy) </span><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">and the people whose work and cooperation make up such governing, </span><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">you seem to engage in begging the question, emotional reasoning, and again, presuming what you should be exploring.</span><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"> </span></li>
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That's the reification fallacy again, and begging the question (circular reasoning). I am not ascribing these characteristics to "government" because "government" is a nominalization of the verb <i>governing</i>. Also, I am describing behaviors of <i>these people</i> who are governing. Pot; kettle, kettle; pot.</div>
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<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">Namely, what are the problems, advantages, dangers and positive possibilities of different ways to govern and coordinate human endeavors?</span></li>
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The problem is the gun in the room -- being coerced rather than having an opportunity to participate voluntarily.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">This requires an open-ness that seems lacking in the tone of your post.</span></li>
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Ad hominem: "You're wrong because you're not open-minded." First person to use <i>ad hominem</i> loses!</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">Because there is abuse in families, collectives, cities, neighborhood, state, and governments should not rationally lead us to disband or dis-regard all human order. </span></li>
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Red herring -- I've never said that.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">The fact remains, as others have already noted, that you are talking about human beings who recognize the need to organize, cooperate, determine geo-political boundaries for (historically) important and adaptive reasons.</span></span></span></span></span></span></li>
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Sophistry -- "the fact remains". People can organize and cooperate (real actions) without geopolitical boundaries (imaginary things). One does not equal the other. There's no relationship.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">You expect no human grouping to have controls? Should they have no ways to regulate conduct? </span><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">Would chaos and anarchy be moral or even adaptive?</span></li>
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The Mad Max fallacy; "It is impossible to have cooperation without coercion." Do you see the gestapo at Safeway telling us what bread to buy? </ul>
<ul class="UFIList" data-reactid=".37" style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">` I should have asked: Are you willing to threaten to kidnap me for smoking pot in a place where it's deemed "illegal"? What if I don't want to be kidnapped? Would you blow my brains out? That's what it would take. Under what conditions would you be willing to kill me?</ul>
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<ul class="UFIList" data-reactid=".37" style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Does the answer change if you contracted out an "official" third party to do this so that you can't smell the blood?</ul>
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Under what conditions would you (the reader) deserve to be killed?</div>
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<ul class="UFIList" data-reactid=".37" style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Laws are not suggestions, they are edicts backed by lethal force. The opinions of long-dead lawyers imposed upon us are toothless without the eminent threat of a violent death.</ul>
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<ul class="UFIList" data-reactid=".37" style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">"We have to coerce you to cooperate, for a fee." No thanks.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146708364201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">There are good families and bad, and according to some (perhaps Shermer?) we have made progress in making such distinctions. Governing is messy, challenging, and yes, fraught with dangers, but lawlessness is not a viable alternative. I have seen similar arguments against governments that seem to imply some anarchist ideals, supposedly transcending concepts of states, but usually even these are bound to cultural values peculiar to those whose identities are historically still tied to geographical and political interests. Are we having fun yet </span></li>
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Red herring -- I never mentioned a lack of rules. Not an argument.</div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Gary, deities are an abstraction and as ideas, they absolutely can have use that is meaningful to people.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">"Still clinging to the desire to see what's "real" as a physical thing."</span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$2:0">No, that's not it at all. I've had hallucinatory and spiritual experiences that I know are not real outside of my own head, but are among the most meaningful in my life.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">In fact, it is these experiences which show me that my assumptions about the world are only 'The Matrix', and I can actually see the world of nature more clearly because of them.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$6:0">Only nature exists, and what I think matters not to the universe. My experiences in my head are meaningful to me, but I will not take a gun and demand that everyone else see things my way.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$10:0">My problem is pretty much the same as if the Catholic Church [people who assume it exists] said, "we're taking over, you have to do what we say. If you don't like it, you can go to another church , but you can't leave religion because God is real."</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$14:0">Living according to the government is basically a role playing game. You play by the rules, or not.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">My problem with the government is not that it's pretend, but that government officials usually can't admit this. Sure, in private they may say, "by the way, laws aren't real [are bullshit]", but if you try to assert this in court , you are going to get into some serious trouble.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$18:0">If they can't operate via transparency , and be open and honest about this, and instead enforce laws with violence, that means that they need guns to prove their authority.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$21:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$22:0">The Catholic Church used to use weapons to prove their authority all the time. The government does the same thing -- if you don't see things our way, you should be killed!</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$23:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$25:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$26:0">I think that the government would be meaningful and useful to me if they did not use violence to get their way.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$27:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$28:0">My psychotic, gaslighting abusive narcissist dad used to say, "I am your father!" And I would think, Ok, he contributed sperm to my existence.' I seriously had no clue that he was effectively saying "I am the law!" until years later.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$29:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$30:0">He also used to say, "I clothe you and feed you and this is the thanks I get?" I would think, 'Well yeah, people in prison get clothes and food too.'</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$31:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$33:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$34:0">Any relationship that is based on violence, distrust, and lies, is not a healthy one. I know you must understand this well. Just because I depended on him for survival didn't mean that he had any rightful authority over me.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$35:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$37:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$38:0">The relationship between the governors and the governed is an abusive, codependent relationship, because it is based on violence and distrust and thus coercion.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$39:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$40:0">I have no problem whatsoever with a system of government that is based on trust and cooperation. This system is a kind of anarchy and it is based on voluntary participation. No one coerces you into paying for roads in the same way that you are not coerced into paying bills.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$41:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$43:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$44:0">Lawlessness, as you envision it, is very different from my vision.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$45:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$46:0">We need rules to protect one another from those individuals who are prone to harming others. Security forces are needed to keep these people in check.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$47:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$48:0">Laws, on the other hand, are opinions with guns. Even a parking ticket has potentially lethal force behind it if you don't pay.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$49:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$50:0">It all does, because violence is at the root of modern government [and throughout history]. I don't play by those rules. [My rules are mainly, "do no harm".]</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$51:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$52:0">Threatening me with eternal damnation does not motivate me into embracing your god. It only makes me think, "what an asshole, I would never worship that god even if it was real."</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$53:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$54:0">I have too much respect for myself than to give into threats and bribes.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$55:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$57:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146928514201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$58:0">Yes, I am having fun, thank you for raising those points.</span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146886109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1061027523&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146886109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/ben.radford.58?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146886109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Ben Radford</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146886109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146886109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146886109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146886109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146886109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">"So, i am not part of any such collective agreements." I don't know about government agreements, but you've agreed to lots of collective agreements. The Facebook Terms of Service, for example, contains pages and pages of things you've agreed to, whether you realize it or not...</span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146886109201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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I was never coerced into joining Facebook. I will not be threatened for not participating in Facebook. The issue is not about agreements, it's about the gun in the room.<br />
` There's a difference between sex and rape, trade and robbery, contract and fraud, visiting and kidnapping. When people use violence against others, we say it's bad. But when the governing people steal money, magically it's not theft. When they arrest people for possessing drugs, it's not kidnapping if you make magical exceptions to our basic moral rules.</div>
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Claiming to know what I've agreed to is the Mind-Reading Fallacy.</div>
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"Everyone" -- the all-or-nothing fallacy. Also, the Equivocation Fallacy -- X means Y. Security is routinely enforced without having anything to do with states. How were rules enforced before states were imagined?<br />
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Ad hominem -- ...because?<br />
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Matt: There are no universities outside of beliefs, only people doing stuff. The reification fallacy strikes again!</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">Scot: I should probably tighten my definitions.</span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$2:0">God is to religion as the state is to government.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">Just like God, the state doesn't exist, and the 'religion' based on the state is no more valid than a religion based on God.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$6:0">If you would prefer to believe in some religion (any government) that would kill you for disobeying, because it is based on violence, that's your choice.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">However, I don't have to believe. If I were trapped in a sharia law zone, I still don't have to believe. I may cover my face and pretend to believe, but that is just a protective measure.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">I don't believe, and will never approve of this religion based on violence!</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">Thank you all for your comments!</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$18:0">Thanks for all your logical fallacy-ridden counter-arguments! I know I asked for counter arguments that aren't full of fallacies, but yours were quite useful and fun for me to refute. <span class="emoticon emoticon_smile" style="background-image: url(https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v2/yD/r/xgwo-eWAV_-.png); background-position: -85px -394px; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: auto; display: inline-block; height: 16px; vertical-align: top; width: 16px;" title=":-)"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153146991494201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Ben: Ok, here's the difference between government and Facebook:</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$2:0">You are born into a government just like you can be born into the church. You never agreed to be part of it, and yet the government people will not allow you to have no government.</span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.8666667938232px;">You may</span><span data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.8666667938232px;"><span data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"> be indoctrinated into the government, but you can use your mind to escape, as with the church. At least the church will not force you to join another church if you want to leave.</span><br data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$2:0">If you disobey the government, they can justify using violence against you. They can legally kill you even if you never harmed anyone in any way. Happens every day.</span><br data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><br data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><span data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$6:0">Facebook is a social media platform that I signed up to use. If you disobey Facebook, they can delete your account.</span><br data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147108329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">I was not indoctrinated by Facebook, was not born into it. I can leave Facebook and not be forced to sign up for another social media platform.</span></span></div>
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"I just don't see..." -- Argument from Ignorance.<br />
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147013004201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=100000543504197&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147013004201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/robertjschryvers?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147013004201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Robert von Schryvers</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147013004201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147013004201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147013004201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147013004201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147013004201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Shes going to need a bulldozer now</span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147013004201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147018549201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=539962723&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147018549201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/scot.bastian?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147018549201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Scot Bastian</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147018549201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147018549201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147018549201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147018549201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147018549201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">For example, a basic rule at Burning Man is "No firearms." Another basic rule is: "No pets." These rules were instituted by the BMorg because they were necessary.</span></span></span></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147085824201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=764213464&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147085824201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/matthetube?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147085824201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Matt Crowley</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147085824201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147085824201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147085824201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147085824201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147085824201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147085824201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Universities, tetrahedra, borders, and governments are all abstractions. For an abstraction to have any meaning, it must "cash out" as Sam Harris likes to say, in some sort of sense-data. In many cases this cashing out is complex, yet still real. Laws </span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147085824201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147085824201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147085824201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">are real whether you believe in them or not, which is why we can have unjust laws.</span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
<a aria-label="Remove" class="UFICommentCloseButton _50zy _50-0 _50z- _5upp _42ft" data-hover="tooltip" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147085824201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.4" data-tooltip-alignh="center" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=nf#" style="background-color: transparent; background-image: url(https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v2/yw/r/O-eGmfNdXSW.png); background-position: -13px -174px; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: auto; border: 0px none; color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: block; font-size: 0px !important; height: 12px; opacity: 0; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; position: absolute; right: 0px; text-decoration: none; top: 0px; vertical-align: middle; white-space: nowrap; width: 12px; z-index: 1;"></a></div>
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So... laws are real, which is why we can have laws. Really?! But, I'm getting ahead of myself.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147085824201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">A law against sodomy "cashes out" in being arrested if caught engaging in this activity. The handcuffs on your wrists are as real as it gets, and they got there because of an abstraction known as a law.</span></li>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147091819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147091819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147091819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147091819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147091819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147091819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147091819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147091819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">Scot, I agree, with consent of the governed you can have a group effort, and that is the kind of cooperation I don't mind. However, there is no consentual government today: you cannot really consent if there is corporal punishment which says that you consent.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147091819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147091819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$14:0">There is no such thing as a voluntary compulsory government -- that a contradiction in terms.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147091819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147091819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147091819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$18:0">For example, you must pay taxes at the threat of violence. This includes filling out a tax form. None of this is voluntary, and just because you filled out the form does not mean that you consented.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147091819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147091819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$20:0">As an analogy, you may have a rapist pointing a gun at you and telling you to take your clothes off, so you take your clothes off. Then he says that his raping you is consentual sex because you voluntarily took your clothes off.</span></span></span></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=539962723&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/scot.bastian?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Scot Bastian</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">I think you will find it difficult to find "universal consent." Many folks disagree on some of the most basic of things. I mentioned speed limits and property rules. Dispute resolution is an important part of government. I disagree with both you (and </span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">Ben for that matter) that (to summarize) if you don't like the rules, play another game. (Basically, the "America, Love it, or leave it" argument)</span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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That's like an abusive spouse saying, "If you don't like the abuse, you can just leave your house and find another place to live." In other words, it is blaming the victim.</ul>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">You're right, we are born into our society. Sometimes it is awful hard to address real or perceived injustices. Examples that you and I might agree on are institutionalized racism and sexism, unsupportable military initiatives, the drug war...I could go on, but all this is an argument for better government, not the elimination of government.</span></span></span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147124304201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></li>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147125819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147125819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147125819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147125819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147125819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147125819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147125819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147125819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Scot, believe it or not, speed laws are not always enforced by people with guns. In Mexico, for example, they have speed bumps in residential areas that physically keep people from speeding. On the Autobahn there is no speed limit, yet there are few accidents. Etc.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147125819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147125819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147125819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">Your logical fallacy is called argument from ignorance.</span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147125819201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147127644201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=539962723&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147127644201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/scot.bastian?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147127644201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Scot Bastian</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147127644201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147127644201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147127644201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147127644201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147127644201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Nope. It is just a plain old disagreement.</span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147127644201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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"No it's not" is plain old disagreement. "I can't imagine how we would resolve disputes, enforce speed limits, etc." is argument from ignorance. "I don't know how people would be good if they didn't believe in Gawd!"<br />
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Ok, now that I'm on my laptop, I can see even more comments that were not displaying on my phone. Anyway, thanks for your continued feedback.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">Ben... when you said the public has the power to overturn laws they see as unjust, I didn't say, "Hahahahahah</span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">aaaa! The public does, but the individual does not." The public is just an abstraction, just as a forest is, so that's BS.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">I will point out, however, that this is just a red herring (one of the logical fallacies that you don't seem to recognize that you have used) as this is not the point:</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">What happens if you don't consent? You can be arrested, you can be killed.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">I think what everyone here is missing is that there is a gun in the room: If you don't do it our way, we will force you to. That is my whole entire point. There IS no consent when you are coerced, either implicitly or explicitly.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">And, what are the facts and evidence of authority? Keeping in mind that opinion is not evidence. Argumentum ad baculum -- because they have weapons.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$20:0">Also, you claim that you can agree to things that you are not aware of. How is that possible?</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$21:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$23:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$24:0">Scot: Indeed, we do agree on having rules and security forces. That is not government, in the sense of a state which has a monopoly on the initiation of the use of force. Key word, initiation.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$25:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$27:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$28:0">Just because you can't imagine a voluntary society does not mean that it cannot exist. Further, saying something OUGHT TO BE real doesn't make it real.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$29:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$31:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$32:0">With Burning Man, no one uses violence to make you go or leave, unless you break the rules, and you can come and go as you please. It's voluntary. Completely different from a government.</span></span></span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147136209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1495612551&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/kathy.moyd?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Kathy Moyd</span></a><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.1:$=11:0:0"> </span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"></span><br />
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">"There are no countries, only areas of land. I should note here that the belief that government is real is an example of the Reification Fallacy. One of the most important things I've ever learned is that the map is not the territory -- we eat the food</span></span><span data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.3" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.8666667938232px;"><span data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">, not the menu."</span></span></span></span></span></span><br />
<span data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.3" style="font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.8666667938232px;"><br data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">[Note: I expect there to be disagreements with some of my specifics, but please consider my argument as a whole.]</span><br data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">But a correct map represents reality. A map without any lines can be useful for locating natural features. A map with lines of latitude and longitude can be useful, for example, for getting from one place to another and for determining seasons and sunrise and sunset (assuming you also accept that the Earth goes around the sun and that the Earth's axis is tilted). A map with cities marked shows areas with concentrations of real people. </span><br data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">Similarly, a map with country boundaries shows how groups of people within those boundaries identify themselves or are identified by others and are subject to the governments in the areas where they live. (This map may not be the same for everyone given that there are boundary disputes, but those are localized and don't invalidate the basic premise.)</span><br data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".38.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147041874201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$body.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">Even though "country" and "government" are ideas, individual physical implementations of them are real.</span></span></div>
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I agree, as implementations of ideas are real behaviors. Much like the Taliban, behaving in accordance with their beliefs. In law, states are "things", not just "areas". You cannot be sued by an area, so how can you be sued by a state? You cannot be arrested in the name of the dirt.<br />
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<a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a><span style="color: #141823; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">Kathy,
I agree that maps are useful. I am not arguing otherwise. What I am
arguing is that people mistake the map for the territory, and this is
what causes problems.</span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147174974201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147174974201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147174974201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147174974201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147174974201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147174974201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">Can you provide the facts and evidence, keeping in mind that opinion is not evidence</span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147174974201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147174974201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147174974201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">, that borders somehow cause people to be subject to jurisdiction? Just because people in Louisiana are within the borders of Catholic parishes, does that mean that they are all subject to Catholic law. Are people in northern Iraq subject to the jurisdiction of ISIS, because ISIS claims it?</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147174974201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147174974201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147174974201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">Also, please refer to the video in my article -- that guy was a public information officer for a police department and he was unable to provide any facts or evidence that borders confer jurisdiction. Just like all the rest of them, including supreme court justices and senators.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147174974201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147174974201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147174974201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">Also I mentioned in the article, there is a $5,000 prize for anyone who can provide facts and evidence that jurisdiction applies because of being "within" a state. Robert von actually bet Scot Bastian $10 to call in and do just that, and he hasn't done it as far as we know.</span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Matt: Okay, what you have done is take the opinions of certain people (which are entitled 'laws' in order to make them 'special'), and by using the equivocation fallacy, you have compared them to the physical laws that exist outside of our heads.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">Who </span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">is making a category mistake?</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">You have also said that laws are real because we have unjust laws. That is circular reasoning. Also, it doesn't matter if we think they are just or not. You literally just said that laws are real BECAUSE WE HAVE LAWS.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">Being arrested and having handcuffs on your wrists is the fallacy argument from consequence, no different from 'because we burned them, they were witches.' That doesn't make witches real.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">Scot: You are arguing for the need for security services, with the implication that they cannot exist without a state. Considering that private security services do exist, that you can voluntarily contract with (and cancel the contract, hence voluntary), this is not an argument.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">Yes, I agree that it's difficult, if not impossible, to find universal agreement. And your point is?</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$20:0">Government is not necessary for dispute resolution. There are private dispute resolutions, are there not? Have you ever settled a dispute without the police involved? That is a non sequitur.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$21:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$23:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$24:0">I'm not arguing for the elimination of government -- that's a straw man -- I am arguing that there is no evidence to support the fiction of governmental authority. As an atheist, can you argue for the elimination of God?</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$25:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$27:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$28:0">Ok, if it's just plain old disagreement, then that's a fallacy called 'just because'. Which I made up just now, just because.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$29:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$31:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$32:0">Ok, the Autobahn has speed limits, but my point is there are other ways to enforce safety, without a monopoly on the initiation of the use of force.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$33:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$35:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$36:0">Marc never moves the goalposts. He asks the same question over and over and over and has never changed it for the past ten years. He is asking for the same thing as the JREF asks for -- evidence.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$37:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$39:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$40:0">To get the $5,000, all you have to do is agree to what evidence means -- it is not just opinion, it is not just because someone said so, it is not because people act on their beliefs in the government.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$41:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$43:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147198384201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$44:0">You're a scientist, you know what evidence is, right? You wouldn't take the word of scientists who say 'because we said so', would you?</span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147214754201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=539962723&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147214754201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/scot.bastian?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147214754201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Scot Bastian</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147214754201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147214754201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147214754201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147214754201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147214754201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Okay, what are "the other ways to enforce safety'? For example, how do you think we should deal with law-breakers? For example, someone robs a liquor store--what is your alternative to using force (implied, or otherwise) to arrest the robber? Reason doesn't always work with crazy people.</span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147214754201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147214754201:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span style="color: #141823; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">I'm still baffled on how you can state that there is "no evidence" to support the "fiction" of government. I see evidence of the reality of government everywhere.</span></li>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Scot: The burden of proof is on those that say that the state exists.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">Whether we have all the answers to how a voluntary society works is indeed moving the goalposts.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">E.g. If we outlaw slavery, who will pick the cotton, where will these freed slaves live and work? Who the fuck cares, that's not the point, SLAVERY IS WRONG, deal with it!</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">Dealing with rule-breakers is another issue. Considering that there are private security forces already in existence, and private arbitration services, I don't see this as an impossibility, it is a reality now!</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$16:0">Your mistake is conflating force with the INITIATION of force. The robber is the one who INITIATED force. Therefore, it's reasonable to call security and deal with the situation. Self-defense, whether contracted or not, is totally reasonable and necessary, and yes, it does work with crazy people.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$20:0">Self defense is reasonable!! Coercion, which the government does, is not!</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$21:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$23:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$24:0">And Christians see the reality of God everywhere. Churches, pastors, bibles, TV shows. You don't see evidence of the state, you see evidence of people BELIEVING in the state.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$25:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$27:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$28:0">I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the logical fallacy called argument from consequence. You use it again and again.</span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147228344201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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Non sequitur -- and it goes on!<br />
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147234484201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1228198789&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147234484201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/johnoco?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147234484201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">John Ohannesian</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147234484201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147234484201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147234484201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147234484201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147234484201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147234484201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">An entity that has considerable power over one's actions that has been demonstrated to my satisfaction is real even if you don't think so. When they come for you, use your argument to get out of the trouble. Or fight back, your choice. Denial of existe</span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147234484201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147234484201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147234484201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">nce of an entity that has power over one is self-induced blindness. Calling it non-existent doesn't make it go away. It may be "just an idea" like God, but God have never shown any evidence of actual existence, while government sure has. You are subject to laws even if you don't know about them or disagree with them and it is wishful thinking to believe in magical solutions to real problems. Wishing government and laws didn't exist is truly unreal. Saying it is a philosophical game is how ivory towers are constructed.</span></span></span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147234484201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Scot: Did you mean that as an argument? Because it's not.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">God doesn't exist. If I kill someone in the name of God, is that evidence of God?</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">If a police officer kills someone unjustly in the name of the law, does that mean that the law exists [is valid]?</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">John: Power to your satisfaction is not an argument, it is your personal opinion. If you said that you believe that God's power has been demonstrated to your satisfaction, it doesn't mean that it is real even if I don't think so.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$16:0">When the Inquisition comes for you, your argument that God doesn't exist will not get you out of trouble. They will simply burn you for saying that God doesn't exist.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$20:0">There is a difference between the state existing and people acting on their beliefs that it exists. Saying that it's real because of violent consequences is, again, argument from consequence, or argument from force.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$21:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$23:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$24:0">You can ask a cop how he has jurisdiction, he may answer by pointing his gun at you, just as a member of ISIS might do.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$25:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$27:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$28:0">"Denial of existence of an entity that has power over one is self-induced blindness."</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$29:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$31:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$32:0">No, the entity does not have power over you. People with guns that BELIEVE that the entity exists are the ones who have power over you.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$33:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$35:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$36:0">See: The Crusades.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$37:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$39:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$40:0">If the Insquisitors were after you, would that make you believe in God or in the Pope's authority?</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$41:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$43:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$44:0">That's right, calling it non-existant doesn't make it go away -- calling God non-existent doesn't make God go away, because there's no God to go away to begin with!</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$45:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$47:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$48:0">What magical thinking creates evidence that anyone is subject to laws?</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$49:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$51:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0">Wishing God and Allah don't exist is truly unreal, because ISIS is killing people, so that means that Allah exists, right?</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$53:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$55:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$56:0">Saying that slavery and religion are a philosophical game is how ivory towers are constructed. Really?</span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147245564201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147259209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=539962723&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147259209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/scot.bastian?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147259209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Scot Bastian</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147259209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147259209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147259209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147259209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147259209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I already agreed that there are bad laws. Our arguments have been going in circles.</span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147259209201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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Okay, first he says that it's the cops' faults if they uphold the law in an unjust way. But that's not true -- the cop is just obeying orders. So, Scot says that he agrees there are unjust laws. Who is moving the goal posts? He is not answering any of my arguments, he is just evading them.</div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">No they haven't, because you have not recognized the difference between force and THE INITIATION of force. Or, the difference between what OUGHT to be and what IS.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">Christians can argue that God OUGHT TO exist because that makes the universe more fair. Besides, if they don't see any other way for people to get along, well, that must mean that there isn't. Therefore, God must exist.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">Ok -- so far, you have been able to provide evidence that one of my claims, that the Autobahn has no speed limits, is false. Although there are stretches of the Autobahn that have no speed restrictions, there are speed limits in other areas.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">That is the only claim that anyone has been able to refute using evidence. I asked for evidence that the state exists, not just that it OUGHT TO exist, but that it ACTUALLY exists.</span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147266619201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147270854201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=539962723&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147270854201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/scot.bastian?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147270854201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Scot Bastian</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147270854201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147270854201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147270854201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147270854201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147270854201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I'm kinda done here. I'll just finish with this: If you really don't think the state "ACTUALLY" exists, then what are you rebelling against?</span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147270854201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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So, Scot drops out of the argument with a red herring, without addressing anything I've said. By the way, Ben 'liked' this comment after I responded to it:<br />
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<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$0:0">Thanks, Scot. That was fun.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$4:0">What I am rebelling against is people with guns who are able to impose an inaccurate model of the world on us. Again, see The Crusades. It is like people with swords who say God is real because swords!!</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$8:0">I can't ignore the swords, but the threat of violence cannot make me believe the myth.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$12:0">It's just like Richard Dawkins, etc. rebelling against people who impose religion upon others, at gunpoint or otherwise. You would laugh at the idea that </span>Richard Dawkins<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$text1:0:$0:0"> and </span>Sam Harris<span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0"> are rebelling against God, wouldn't you?</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">I don't wish the religion of Statethism imposed upon me at gunpoint. That's all.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">I would think that atheists such as yourself would understand the parallels here, yet it's as if I'm talking to creationists about God.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">It is astonishing to me that I have been utterly unable to get this point across for this entire thread. Once you see it, you can't unsee it, but there's no way for you to understand what I mean by that unless you do.</span><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".37.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147286624201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$16:0">And it all goes back to cultural conditioning, the Pledge of Allegience, etc. We were raised praying to the state and believing that it is just as real as trees. It takes an awful lot of self-honesty to see how you have been conditioned to justify the INITIATION of force held by a select elite.</span></span></span></span></div>
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It's not the same criterion -- I am asking whether something exists as matter and energy, i.e. not "pretend". If there were no people around, a sculpture would exist, but the idea that the sculpture is "art" would not.</div>
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<span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=764213464&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/matthetube?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Matt Crowley</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">"Matt: Okay, what you have done is take the opinions of certain people (which are entitled 'laws' in order to make them 'special'), and by using the equivocation fallacy, you have compared them to the physical laws that exist outside of our heads.</span></span><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">Who is making a category mistake?"</span><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">Physical laws which exist outside our heads? Physical laws are actually ~descriptions~ of reality, and are abstract formulations. F =MA is an abstract description of reality. While the underlying reality exists independently of minds, our formulation of physical laws constitute abstract descriptions most certainly created by humans. </span><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147284294201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">Yes, abstract descriptions of physical reality differ from man-made legal laws. Yet both are abstractions, just as the words and symbols used to express them are abstractions. </span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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This is yet another distortion. We perceive everything in our head. If you have the image of a tree in your mind that corresponds to a real tree, then you can say it exists in a concrete fashion.<br />
` There is a category of abstractions which corresponds to what exists: Numbers are abstractions, yet they are not arbitrary, nor subjective, because they are descriptions of the behaviors and properties of matter and energy.<br />
` Numbers are imaginary, but quantity is real -- I can sell you three bananas, but I cannot sell you "three". Speed, relationships, mass, energy, geometrical forms, etc. are descriptions which correspond to what's really in the universe.</div>
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Then there's another category, of imaginary things which are not even an abstraction of what is real. Leprechauns, gods, etc. belong to this category, as do states. There is nothing in 'the real world' which corresponds to the reality of a state, outside of people's imaginations.</div>
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` Matt has tried to say that the state is in the second category, that it is an abstraction of some real phenomenon outside of people's imaginations.</div>
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` If there are three rocks and no one around to see them, the rocks would still exist. When the ancient Sumerians disappeared from history, they took the entire idea of Sumeria with them. The land still exists, but the state is not the land, it is nowhere but in our minds.</div>
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Right, burning witches is an event, it is a consequence of being a heretic and breaking God's law. This is the "cashing out" of an imaginary God. And God isn't even an abstraction because he doesn't correspond to anything we know of -- God is a fiction. You know, pretend.</div>
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` Just because a fiction can "cash out" does not mean that it's an abstraction of something real or valid.<br />
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<span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a aria-haspopup="true" aria-owns="js_bj" class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" id="js_bk" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">Scot: That's a very good argument. <span class="emoticon emoticon_smile" style="background-image: url(https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v2/yD/r/xgwo-eWAV_-.png); background-position: -85px -394px; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: auto; display: inline-block; height: 16px; vertical-align: top; width: 16px;" title=":-)"></span> Thank you.</span><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">You can prove there are paintings, sculptures, musical arrangements, yes, but those map across to real things.</span><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$10:0">Art is imaginary, but not subjective in that these real objects are made of matter and energy. To an ant, it wouldn't be art, but at least the ant can crawl across a canvas even if it doesn't recognize the brushstrokes as a painting.</span><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">You could not say the same for unicorns, because that concept does not map across to anything that's real. Similarly, the concept of the state (or God) does not map across to anything real, even though people believe it does.</span><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$16:0">Matt: OK, I think I understand. Very good argument! Physical laws are descriptions of behaviors of nature, which persist in reality whether we exist or not.</span><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$20:0">You have said that laws, borders, etc. are just abstractions, yes. Here's what you don't seem to understand:</span><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$21:0" /><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$23:0" /><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$24:0">"Yet even human created legal laws cash out in "events" which are part of physical reality."</span><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$25:0" /><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$26:0">What do you mean by 'cashed out'? That is a term of art I can't quite pin down.</span><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$27:0" /><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$29:0" /><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$30:0">What I think you are saying is that, because you get presents on Christmas, that means that the belief in Santa Claus 'cashes out'. Or when you pray and get better, that means that belief in God 'cashes out'.</span><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$31:0" /><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$33:0" /><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$34:0">Law doesn't come and get you, a person with a belief does, right? How does the belief make the abstraction real?</span><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$35:0" /><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$37:0" /><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$38:0">"Being handcuffed is an event. It is a ~consequence~ of breaking a law and getting caught. This is the "cashing out" of the abstraction of a law." [Actually, it isn't even an abstraction because it doesn't correspond to anything real.]</span><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$39:0" /><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$41:0" /><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$42:0">You're basically saying that because we burned witches, that makes witches and magic spells real. Because a belief in witches "cashes out" in witches being burned, right?</span><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$43:0" /><br data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$45:0" /><span data-reactid=".8h.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153147376464201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$46:0">Or am I misunderstanding the term "cashing out"?</span></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823; font-size: 11.9999990463257px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">By the way, I want to thank both of you for actually sticking with it and really trying to give me good arguments. And not talking down to me. I really appreciate that.</span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a aria-describedby="js_1s" aria-haspopup="true" aria-owns="js_1r" class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1228198789&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/johnoco?fref=ufi" id="js_1t" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">John Ohannesian</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">"What I am rebelling against is people with guns who are able to impose an inaccurate model of the world on us. " Spoony.</span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">I don't like the hegemony of force either, but it truly is a fact and will never go away as far as I am aware. People use force t</span></span><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">o get their way, right or wrong. I'm sorry you aren't yet reconciled to this fact about reality, but there it is and it must be dealt with somehow, telling people with guns they aren't being fair is pointless and expecting the state to wither away from harsh criticism is futile.</span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">"Political power comes from the barrel of a gun." Mao Tse Tung.</span></span></span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153156909169201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.6"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Spoony R Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">John, thank you for proving my point:</span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">"it truly is a fact and will never go away as far as I am aware."</span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">Never is a long time, you mean after humans go extinct/have evolved into some other being? As far as you're aware means that you don't know, so what are you saying it for?</span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">"People use force to get their way, right or wrong."</span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$16:0">And? For thousands of years we've had slavery, the same argument has been made about that. (Logical fallacy called Argument from Tradition.) What's your point?</span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$20:0">"I'm sorry you aren't yet reconciled to this fact about reality,"</span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$21:0" /><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$23:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$24:0">Reality is that the state is imaginary, it doesn't exist, it is not part of nature, it is part of the collective belief, like gods. Also, the reality of human behavior is that most people don't use force to get their way -- they prefer win-win scenarios.</span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$25:0" /><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$27:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$28:0">"telling people with guns they aren't being fair is pointless"</span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$29:0" /><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$31:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$32:0">If it's pointless, then how can people who act in the name of the state have any assumption of authority or jurisdiction? If it's all "might makes right", there is no such thing as due process, and the entire thing is a fraud, trials are just an illusion of justice, etc.</span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$33:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$34:0">` The burden of proof is upon those who act in the name of the state to prove with facts and evidence that they have authority and jurisdiction, so if it's just arbitrary, the entire body of law is fraudulent.</span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$35:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$36:0">` If it's all 'because we said so', then why bother having a government at all, instead of a common mafia?</span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$37:0" /><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$39:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$40:0">"and expecting the state to wither away from harsh criticism is futile."</span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$41:0" /><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$43:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$44:0">Who claimed that the state would wither away from harsh criticism? Would Pinocchio wither away from harsh criticism? Would God, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn? It's impossible for something to wither away if it doesn't exist in the first place.</span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$45:0" /><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$47:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$48:0">"Political power comes from the barrel of a gun." Mao Tse Tung. </span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$49:0" /><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$51:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$52:0">So, John, you have concluded that there is no law, only power. And that's true. But the issue is the PRETENSE that the law is somehow legitimate.</span><br data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$53:0" /><span data-reactid=".y.1:3:1:$comment10153145511079201_10153157023424201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.$end:0:$54:0">` Well, there's no evidence that it is, but as you and I know, the participation in a government is non-voluntary. You've made my case quite well. Thanks.</span></span></span></span></div>
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It's astonishing to me how none of these people, including the esteemed skeptic Ben Radford, were able to offer a single counter-argument to what I've presented in <i>Secular Heresy</i>.<br />
<br />
Is this so hard to understand?:<br />
<br />
The state is imaginary, and so its authority is not based on facts. Instead, it is based on violence, but if you try to point that out in court, they can punish you as a heretic. The people who are supposedly in charge don't want us to realize that. "Go back to sleep, we are in control!"<br />
<br />
Even Matt Crowley has told me that he doesn't understand what I am getting at. To him, it seemed as though I have found some trivial fact (that the state is not a physical entity), and am going on about it as though it is some really huge deal.<br />
` When I told him it was about the validity of authority, not about whether the state is a physical entity, he said that's a much more important question. After all, if you are in court being pelted with logical fallacies and lying, that's a serious problem.<br />
` Facts and evidence are not needed (nor desirable) when you question whether the court has any authority over you. I do not understand why anyone could hear of this and ask "what's the big deal?"<br />
<br />
<b>Update:</b> After linking this very article to my Facebook, I tagged my dissenting commenters so they would see that this post exists. While Matt has been helping me to consider possible other ways to describe what I am talking about, Gary has displayed another tack....<br />
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<span data-reactid=".1r.1:3:1:$comment10153176433129201_10153177380329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1408806434&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".1r.1:3:1:$comment10153176433129201_10153177380329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/gpeterson1?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".1r.1:3:1:$comment10153176433129201_10153177380329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.0.0.0">Gary Peterson</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".1r.1:3:1:$comment10153176433129201_10153177380329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1"><span data-reactid=".1r.1:3:1:$comment10153176433129201_10153177380329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".1r.1:3:1:$comment10153176433129201_10153177380329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".1r.1:3:1:$comment10153176433129201_10153177380329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".1r.1:3:1:$comment10153176433129201_10153177380329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".1r.1:3:1:$comment10153176433129201_10153177380329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Sounds like you are on your way....to becoming gifted in rationalizing your argument, selectively picking flaws..only in others's views, ignoring how they correctly identified YOUR fallacious thinking, and then putting it all down to those skeptics not</span></span><span data-reactid=".1r.1:3:1:$comment10153176433129201_10153177380329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".1r.1:3:1:$comment10153176433129201_10153177380329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".1r.1:3:1:$comment10153176433129201_10153177380329201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1.$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"> understanding what you really meant to say. Be sympathetic to Chopra and Dr. Oz now...they do the same. Self-knowledge IS really hard...humility is always challenging lol.</span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-80102897368056165562015-03-01T22:36:00.000-08:002015-06-14T19:06:48.129-07:00Anatomy of a Secular HeresyThis post started as an email to a prominent skeptic about the most shocking heresy in all of skepticdom. Though I never got a response, I am nevertheless eager to plaster it all over my blog.<br />
<br />
Back in the days of Borders Books, I remember finding a book there on critical thinking and scanning the introduction. It concerned posing a simple question about the separation of church and state to an online forum of college students; should the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?<br />
<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjJViRIwehveKcJJnBwsQwWi6HKODG0vA2JT3-3txsYQz4EoMRIozlhEmtTE0V03V6GHxX9HYaEt-0jZvUem85GWfAhPT0cCErm74LzFpII2KGrm5vaRb2bu6VfRWbcFozlmYAiC9LPEAY/s1600/100_5692.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" height="289" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjJViRIwehveKcJJnBwsQwWi6HKODG0vA2JT3-3txsYQz4EoMRIozlhEmtTE0V03V6GHxX9HYaEt-0jZvUem85GWfAhPT0cCErm74LzFpII2KGrm5vaRb2bu6VfRWbcFozlmYAiC9LPEAY/s1600/100_5692.JPG" width="320" /></a>` If you didn't already know, the original pledge was written in 1892, and these two words were added in 1954 in order to distinguish the U.S. from the godless commie countries (along with the slogan 'In God We Trust' on U.S. currency).<br />
` Even so, many of the students responded with something along the lines of, "No, because we should honor what our founding fathers wanted." Thus it was revealed that these students had evidently never thought to ask who wrote the pledge or when.<br />
<br />
Over the years, I've heard the "under God" discussion <i>ad nauseum</i> in Skeptic and atheist media, but it had never even occurred to me to ask why children were supposed to recite the pledge in the first place.<br />
` To me, it was just "something that you do in school," something that seemed so inconsequential that it never occurred to me to think of how this practice got started. Of course, the first place I would look for information on this particular topic is... Wikipedia:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: white; color: #252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 20.3636360168457px;">The original "Pledge of Allegiance" was published in the September 8 issue of the popular children's magazine </span><i style="background-color: white; color: #252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 20.3636360168457px;"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Youth%27s_Companion" style="background: none; color: #0b0080; text-decoration: none;" title="The Youth's Companion">The Youth's Companion</a></i><span style="background-color: white; color: #252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 20.3636360168457px;"> as part of the National Public-School Celebration of </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Day" style="background: none rgb(255, 255, 255); color: #0b0080; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 20.3636360168457px; text-decoration: none;" title="Columbus Day">Columbus Day</a><span style="background-color: white; color: #252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 20.3636360168457px;">, a celebration of the 400th anniversary of </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus" style="background: none rgb(255, 255, 255); color: #0b0080; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 20.3636360168457px; text-decoration: none;" title="Christopher Columbus">Christopher Columbus</a><span style="background-color: white; color: #252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 20.3636360168457px;">'s arrival in the Americas. The event was conceived and promoted by James B. Upham, a marketer for the magazine, as a campaign to instill the idea of American </span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism" style="background: none rgb(255, 255, 255); color: #0b0080; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 20.3636360168457px; text-decoration: none;" title="Nationalism">nationalism</a><span style="background-color: white; color: #252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 20.3636360168457px;"> in students and sell flags to public schools.</span><sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-The_Story_7-0" style="background-color: white; color: #252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10.9090909957886px; line-height: 1; unicode-bidi: -webkit-isolate;"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#cite_note-The_Story-7" style="background: none; color: #0b0080; text-decoration: none; white-space: nowrap;">[7]</a></sup><span style="background-color: white; color: #252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13.63636302948px; line-height: 20.3636360168457px;"> According to author Margarette S. Miller this was in line with Upham's vision which he "would often say to his wife: 'Mary, if I can instill into the minds of our American youth a love for their country and the principles on which it was founded, and create in them an ambition to carry on with the ideals which the early founders wrote into The Constitution, I shall not have lived in vain.'"</span><sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-8" style="background-color: white; color: #252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 10.9090909957886px; line-height: 1; unicode-bidi: -webkit-isolate;"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#cite_note-8" style="background: none; color: #0b0080; text-decoration: none; white-space: nowrap;">[8]</a></sup></blockquote>
This may seem innocuous at a glance, but first, imagine a flock of birds flying over the border between two countries. For a moment, you naively think to yourself, "I wonder if they know that they are flying into a different country," and then you realize that these birds are not in any countries.<br />
<br />
There are no countries, only areas of land. I should note here that the belief that the state is real is an example of the <a href="https://triangulations.wordpress.com/2012/08/29/the-reification-fallacy/">Reification Fallacy</a>. One of the most important things I've ever learned is that the map is not the territory -- we eat the food, not the menu.<br />
<br />
And now that <i>I can see</i> that the state is just an abstraction, largely enforced by lying sociopaths with weapons, I can ask what is the virtue of making children essentially worship a complete fiction?<br />
` Let's start with the fact that the government claims a monopoly on the initiation of force. In other words, they get to push people around and say who can do what, in the name of the state, and any interference with this can be <i>legally</i> met with violence. How has this been determined?<br />
<br />
If there's one thing I've been learning about more over the past couple of years, it's the fact that we're all caught up in a giant fallacious belief system and are made to at least pretend to take it seriously -- or else we're heretics! Here's what I mean:<br />
<br />
Atheists of course concede that the idea of God didn't exist until humans made it up. There are real buildings called churches, there are real people who play the role of church authority, there's a real book purported to be the law of God, but these consequences do not mean that God exists.<br />
<br />
Similarly, the idea of states/countries didn't exist until humans made them up. There are real government buildings, real people who play the role of authority and law enforcement, there are real documents purported to be the law of the state, but these consequences do not mean that the state exists.<br />
` Under the threat of lethal force, people pay this nonexistent entity, and are allowed to vote in the hopes that their tax money is spent in a particular way.<br />
<br />
Most importantly, this system is based on violence, because it trains people to put you in prison for not paying taxes, and to shoot you if you try to resist. Over money. And the person who shot you doesn't get in trouble because they were 'upholding the law'.<br />
` Of course, this also happens for people who have the wrong bit of plant material in their pockets. How can this punishment possibly be justified? I cannot help but think of how this is like the idea of God sending people to infinite burning in hell for something they did within a finite lifespan.<br />
` When you go to court for such victimless crimes, there is of course no victim to oppose you, so instead you go up against The State. The same State that The Judge works for. If the judge works for the same fictional entity that you are going up against in court, then how can it be a fair trial?<br />
<br />
I hope to have inspired at least a few people into considering these matters just now, before the entire can of worms is writhing on the floor:<br />
<br />
<a name='more'></a><br />
What I've come to find is that belief in the state is not only <i>like</i> a religion, but it actually <i>is</i> a religion -- unlike science, which is a method of understanding based on empirical evidence. What evidence do we have that states exist, and that laws apply to people living on the land?<br />
<br />
The Native Americans didn't think that states existed before Europeans said they did.<br />
<br />
Said they did. There is no evidence -- other than, "because we said so, oh, and here's some smallpox-ridden blankets."<br />
<br />
I've very recently discovered a fellow skeptic named Marc Stevens, who, much like the JREF, has a $5,000 challenge to anyone who can prove with facts and evidence that the state "really" exists and that laws apply to people living within its imaginary borders.<br />
` He has contacted many federal judges and lawyers on this matter, and none of them can prove it -- it's very similar to watching all those cranks fail the Million Dollar Challenge! They have logical fallacies and excuses, nothing more -- and there is plenty of video of them Gish Galloping on YouTube. (I've embedded a sample of this below.)<br />
<br />
How much sense does this example make: The laws apply to us because people actually pay taxes and go to prison. Wrong! People are forced to do those things, by other people. Coercion is not a social contract, and does not mean that people agree to accept laws of their own will.<br />
` Forcing people to do things doesn't mean that the state exists any more than people being tortured and killed by islamists means that Allah exists. Although you may fill out a tax form, you are required to do so by law (under threat of violence) -- it is coerced, not voluntary. Your autograph on a tax form is no more a valid signature than if the Inquisition forced you to sign a confession of being a witch.<br />
<br />
And to say that laws apply because the laws <i>say that they apply</i> is of course just circular reasoning -- might as well say that the bible is true because the bible says it's true! What are the facts and evidence of authority? Outside of belief and opinion, the pope and the president have the same amount of authority -- zero.<br />
<br />
And there is a lot of circular reasoning on display in Marc Steven's book <i>'Government Indicted'</i>, which is on my to-read list. For instance, Stevens asks the court what evidence they have that his client is a taxpayer. The answer is, because the court sent the client a letter saying that he had to pay taxes. And why did they send him a letter? Because he's a taxpayer...<br />
` Around and around it goes. And these people have college degrees. Even more disturbing, they know that they're scammers; if you point to the man behind the curtain, that's a threat to their position in power and they try to direct your attention elsewhere.<br />
` The emperor has no clothes because there is no such thing as emperor -- we are all just people under the surface -- and yet they can punish you for saying so!<br />
<br />
But Spoony, you say, what would we do without the government? That's like saying, "But Spoony, how would we be moral without God?" That's not an argument for the existence (and thus authority) of anything. Atheist organizations spread the idea that you can be good without believing in God because that's how it really is.<br />
` Similarly, you can be good without believing in a government. You can build roads and schools and fire departments and security agencies without basing it on duress or coercion or the reification fallacy. Most of our transactions are voluntary already, so why not all of them?<br />
<br />
What's preventing people from realizing this? It's the pernicious conditioning of the reification fallacy, backed with violence, that's embedded within all cultures. From the Pledge of Allegiance, to television, the news, civics classes, etc.; the assumption that the state has some kind of reality and authority beyond our imagination is inescapable.<br />
` Yet, if you draw attention to this fact, you run the risk of being labeled as some kind of dangerous terrorist for your thoughtcrime of cool rationality. Don't think for a moment that you're not up against some major illogicality -- check out this court transcript from Marc Stevens:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>"Well, Marc, you're not subject to the laws governing fishing because you don't fish."</i><br />
"Great, the law doesn't apply; I'll go fishing then."<br />
<i>"Then the laws would apply to you."</i><br />
"Why?"<br />
<i>"Because there are laws about fishing."</i><br />
"They weren't applicable a moment ago, but now they are, just because I decided to fish?"<br />
<i>"Yes."</i><br />
"What evidence is there the law applies though?"<br />
<i>"Fishing."</i><br />
"What makes you think that is true?"<br />
<i>"Fishing."</i><br />
"But what..."<br />
<i>"Fishing."</i></blockquote>
Complete insanity. In his (and others') adventures in Legal Land, the lawyers, judges and senators alike claim to have facts which back up their authority, but instead they merely offer logical fallacies such as:<br />
` Argument from Force, Argument from Authority, Argument from Tradition, Argument from Utility, Argument from Popular Opinion, Argument from Consequences, Circular Reasoning, and an assortment of Non Sequiturs.<br />
<br />
The burden of proof is on them to provide facts and evidence that laws apply to people living on the land. They can't admit that there is no evidence because that would mean conceding that they have no authority, and so they vomit forth the same logical fallacies over and over again.<br />
<br />
I would also like to point out that while you may feel blessed not to live under sharia law, what happens if you openly claim in a court of law that the state isn't real? You may be found in contempt of court or more likely be sentenced to a psych exam. It is the ultimate blasphemy in the modern world.<br />
<br />
Ask yourself why you were made to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in school, when you didn't even know what a "liege" is, or many of the other words. And you're reciting it to a piece of cloth and to a fiction called The United States. Why is this so important in the cultural conditioning of young children?<br />
<br />
"I promise to be a servant to the piece of cloth which represents a fictional entity, one group of people on this land, within these invisible borders, under the invisible sky daddy, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, whatever that means."<br />
<br />
It's magical gibberish. Might as well be casting a spell to ward off dragons.<br />
<br />
In reality, nature is the only thing that we know exists -- matter and energy. Abstractions do not exist in material reality. Like the concept of leprechauns, countries are only a projection of our minds and do not correspond to anything independently of our thoughts. Because they do not exist, political authority is nonsensical.<br />
` Sure, expertise in a subject matter is real, but when weapons are the only things that say you're an authority, how does that make you an authority rather than a thug?<br />
<br />
Marc would honestly like to know if he is wrong, so he likes to challenge people, including federal magistrates, lawyers, cops, IRS agents, politicians, bureaucrats, etc. Every one of them has failed, and here's just one example of the Gish Gallop of logical fallacies:<br />
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<iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/BeBiIk64J0Y?rel=0" width="640"></iframe>
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<br />
Right, the law applies to you because we put <i>other people</i> in our prisons. And they wouldn't be there if the law didn't apply. And I'm sure those folks in Salem wouldn't have burned all those women if they hadn't been witches -- you know they were witches <i>because they were burned.</i><br />
<br />
=Argument from Consequence.<br />
<br />
To add to what Michael Shermer said about The Moral Arc, questioning an authority based on violence rather than evidence seems to be the logical next step. First we question religion, then the divine right of kings, and then the authority of the state. None of these violence-based entities are real, right?<br />
<br />
To quote a humorous internet meme: "I can't seem to find this mystical document called 'the social contract' which you claim I am party to." I never signed it, and cannot opt out without entering another social contract. Yet, it is based upon nothing but coercion!<br />
<br />
And to quote an excerpt from Curry v McCanless, 307, US 357, 366 (yes, also from Marc's book):<br />
<div>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
From the beginning of our constitutional system control over the person at the place of his domicile and his duty there, common to all citizens, to contribute to the support of government have been deemed to afford an adequate constitutional basis for imposing on him a tax on the use and enjoyment of rights in intangibles measured by their value.</blockquote>
In other words, it's all about control. You live here, therefore you must pay us, or we have the right to punish you, because we said so. There is no place in the world you can go to escape the violence based on this fallacy. First it was Clergy, then Royalty, now it's The State -- all of them based on fiction.<br />
<br />
When I was six years old, in my only year of 'normal' school, it seemed that they really were serious about imposing a belief in their deity on me, especially via the Pledge of Allegience. I found that frightening, and couldn't bring myself to say "under God".<br />
` At one point, the teacher and other sociopathic adults cornered me and demanded to know why these were the only two words in the entire pledge that I refused to recite. After much pressuring, I blurted out, "Because God is fake!"<br />
` There was a collective gasp throughout the room, and I was severely punished for my truthful answer. Even my parents, who agreed with me that God is fake, punished me for upsetting everyone else, even though I had no concept of why they were upset.<br />
<br />
Yet, I thought nothing of hating myself and revering the public school system and other institutions which horrendously abused me, physically and emotionally. That's because I thought that their authority was somehow valid independent of my beliefs.<br />
` In my liberal college days, I learned to praise the state and public schools more than ever, and this continued until a few years ago. That's when I learned that you cannot have a healthy relationship that is based on violent coercion and fiction.<br />
` Nowadays, if I was in a situation in which people expected me to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, I would refuse altogether, saying, "No thanks, I'm not superstitious." and if they asked me what I meant by that, I would say, "Because the state is fake!"<br />
<br />
<b>Update:</b> I've gotten some really interesting responses to this article, including from some Skeptic-types, which I wrote about in <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2015/03/skeptical-fallout-from-secular-heresy.html">Skeptical Fallout from "Secular Heresy"</a>.</div>
Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-75375768712728749752015-02-15T16:31:00.000-08:002015-02-18T23:38:45.834-08:00A real-life death-defying tale... and some unrelated cool photos!<div>
In my cathartic deluge <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2015/02/grateful-to-still-be-alive-and-thinking.html">last post</a>, I left out the part about something else that happened on January 30, (the day Michael Shermer came to Town Hall). It concerns a woman around my age, who used to seem rather straight-laced, worked at a bank, and who briefly knew Dr. Hypno before a bizarre downward spiral took her to life on the streets.<br />
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` Because of his problem-solving and reframing brilliance, and his blunt honesty, she prefers to consult DH for advice when she is in a serious jam. Though she doesn't always take this advice, partly due to poor impulse control and planning ability, she did take to heart what to do if her psycho ex-boyfriend ever tried to come back and kill her:</div>
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` Puncture an artery/lung by stabbing him under the arm with a screwdriver.</div>
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEirJISBBoWjt7oaOOT8pkM7jyU6NWyDvYUPhV60N4oXiBvMXyS4iyt8RAXWJFp9jj2lsWTefyzxcG0rvaPr-93GB0j9hMtzU6BmURNs-xbxrQEKNNEGMOlr6TEuXy0gIfmXfXWGfXvRhvE/s1600/Sploony+063.JPG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEirJISBBoWjt7oaOOT8pkM7jyU6NWyDvYUPhV60N4oXiBvMXyS4iyt8RAXWJFp9jj2lsWTefyzxcG0rvaPr-93GB0j9hMtzU6BmURNs-xbxrQEKNNEGMOlr6TEuXy0gIfmXfXWGfXvRhvE/s1600/Sploony+063.JPG" height="480" width="640" /></a></div>
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<b><span style="font-size: x-small;">Cloudy solar eclipse Oct 23, 2014 through a filter from a welding mask.</span></b></div>
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<b><span style="font-size: x-small;">Not related, but ominous-looking nonetheless!</span></b></div>
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As I was thinking about what I'd do at Town Hall with some friends that evening, her homicidal ex found her campsite and attacked her with a ball peen hammer. She held her hands up in self-defense and slashed his face with a razor knife, while he swung the hammer at her arms, breaking both of them.</div>
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` He then cracked her skull with the hammer, causing her to lose her balance. He pulled off her pants and raped her, all the while choking her and beating her face in.</div>
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` Luckily, her screwdriver was just within reach of her broken arm, and by sheer force of will she was able to stab him under the arm. With the screwdriver jammed to the hilt in his chest cavity, he ran off, spluttering and gurgling. On the unlikelihood of his survival, the police told her, "Good."<br />
<br />
Although she needed some intensive medical care, including a hole drilled into her skull, she is now recovering -- on the streets. (She did return to Dr. Hypno for some thanks, company, advice, and hospitality.) She continues to be ebullient, talkative, and optimistic as ever, and now knows the power of her own survival drive.</div>
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I had taken a photo of her last winter, on my previous phone, which was stolen. I remember becoming overwhelmed by her personality and high energy -- and that was after she had walked miles in the cold with her knee bandaged from a necrotic insect bite.</div>
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` I figured I'd try getting a photo on my new phone, and when she came by briefly on January 16, I got a candid shot of both of us, having a laugh -- alas it didn't come out so well.<br />
` I include it anyway because it could well have been the last time I would have a chance to see her. Thank goodness she's a regular Indestructible Bastardess -- this is not even the first time she's had to fight for her life, nor the first time I thought she might be dead. And she's still finding more to laugh about.</div>
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Though she may not seem like someone to look up to, I do find her determination and strength to be inspirational. On top of that, any time that I think my life is bad, and that my ex is psycho... well, I have to ask myself, <i>compared to what?</i></div>
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` Honestly, I have nothing to whine about. I'm fine. Stop worrying about me so much.<br />
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Now, before I go, I'd like to point out that there are <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/26580665@N08/">some more photos up on Flickr</a>, and I shall continue uploading more. Next up will be the photos that I was able to back up from my previous phone, which got stolen last July.</div>
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` But first... here are a few I've taken after The Amazing Meeting last year:<br />
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<b><span style="font-size: x-small;">I saw this while on my break for the Rintu Basu workshop last summer.</span></b></div>
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<b><span style="font-size: x-small;">Mount Rainier is even visible over the stadium.</span></b></div>
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<span style="font-size: x-small;"><b><br /></b></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: x-small;"><b>Hooray for the sex organs of Angiosperms!</b></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: x-small;"><b>I called this seagull "Whiny"</b></span></div>
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It has only snowed once this winter, and this was the reaction my cats gave to it:<br />
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<b><span style="font-size: x-small;">That's okay, we can stay inside!</span></b></div>
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<span style="font-size: x-small;"><b>The great thing about zooming in is that cormorants can look really huge compared to Mount Rainier.</b></span></div>
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One more thing -- Flickr changed on me once more, and I have not figured out how to link the photos to my blog. Instead, I've uploaded them to this post directly. Along with this other photo I found on the internet... it's far from recent, but I believe that's her:<br />
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<b><span style="font-size: x-small;">Don't let them win, Cass!</span></b></div>
Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-5697527420721499102015-02-03T17:48:00.000-08:002015-03-01T19:33:30.585-08:00Grateful to still be alive and thinking -- and skepticalof 'gaslighting' abuse!If it weren't for my interest in science and the skeptical movement, plus a need for recovering from so many traumas, I wouldn't have also gotten into psychology, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_reframing">cognitive reframing</a>, denominalization, hypnosis, meditation, psychedelic research, or <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting">gaslighting</a>, nor would I have discovered my role as a <a href="http://samvak.tripod.com/faq76.html#narcissisticsupply">narcissistic source</a>.<br />
` Without my taste for critical thinking and unlocking the mind, I wouldn't have been able to overcome most of my trauma-related impairments, see my way out of a trap I didn't even know I was in, as well as discover more delusions of the world that aren't even talked about in the skeptical community.<br />
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Last week, I went to Michael Shermer's lecture at Town Hall concerning the subject of his latest book, <a href="http://us.macmillan.com/themoralarc/michaelshermer">The Moral Arc</a>. It got me thinking about the information I was processing from the night before, a realization about my ex -- who I'll call "X" from now on.<br />
` Basically, I had just realized that X's acting as though nothing was wrong was all part of his trying to make me doubt my grasp of reality, and <i>that's</i> why I can't stand him when he's being really nice.<br />
` After telling me that I was crazy, "killing" him slowly, and that I had been hypnotized into being some sort of 'attack robot', and that I shouldn't talk to other people about it because they don't know what's "really going on", etc. he has continued pretending as though everything is fine.<br />
` Wait -- what!?<br />
<br />
It's not just that he won't acknowledge the extreme damage he's done to my sanity and health, but that he acts as though <i>it never happened</i>. I haven't been the same since the significance of this fact hit me so hard that I was physically recoiling as though I was being beaten.<br />
` In those moments, when I told a friend about what was going through my head, my voice came from so close to my spleen that I could barely even spit out words over the grunts of involuntary rhythmic recoiling.<br />
` My voice was so guttural that I imagine I sounded like one of the hypnotized victims in Bob Larson's exorcism games. "What kind of sick person does this to someone?" I kept growling. "Oh my GOD!! OH my GOD!!! WHAT!??!!"<br />
<br />
As Shermer was going on about how reason has helped us to overcome senseless brutality, slavery, ignorance, fear, prejudice, superstition, etc., I thought about how it could be that people started out that way to begin with. I realized it was because everyone acted as though it was normal.<br />
` That is the most insidious part, yet finally I can appreciate it. When no one bats an eye, it seems as though everything is being done the right way, and that you're crazy for saying otherwise. Of course, people today are not generally near the pinnacle of morality -- there is probably quite a ways to go. And how is it that this goes so unnoticed?<br />
` Because we act as though nothing is wrong. To take an extreme example, how is it that parents can allow a tumor on their daughter's head to grow to the size of a soccer ball until she dies in agonizing pain? Because, to that family, it's just normal to believe this is all part of God's plan.<br />
` It's not just abuse and neglect that is the problem, but the mentality that this is the way things should be. And to someone who has been severely damaged by this, acting as though they have not been harmed only hurts them on a deeper level -- or kills them in some cases.<br />
<br />
This is why so many false beliefs are dangerous. Even if you don't believe the BS that supports some sort of abuse, but are are surrounded by people who do, and who act like it's normal, that alone is damaging to you:<br />
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` In order to function in life, it is common to develop a sort of Stockholm Syndrome in order to see abusive people in a positive light. It's even worse when we think their abusive actions are reasonable. This is what we may do when we want to get along with those we don't agree with, and in these cases it can be quite dangerous.<br />
` As children, for example, most of us were hit by our parents as punishment. As far as improving behavior goes, this is ineffective, emotionally damaging, and teaches the child by example that might makes right and that they <i>deserve</i> to be physically assaulted by someone bigger than them.<br />
` Statistically, the lasting consequences include lower IQ and a variety of emotional, social, and relationship problems. I remember learning about all this in college and saying to the entire class, "How can this be? I really feel this is right, and science actually agrees with my feelings!"<br />
<br />
Why I felt this way, I wasn't exactly sure, but in the past year or so I've really thought it through: When one spouse hits the other, that's domestic violence. The police can be involved because legally, this is considered assault. The spouse that is being assaulted also has the ability to leave the situation.<br />
` But the small, defenseless child who doesn't know any better requires the parent for survival. And when the parent (or even older sibling) hits the child, and no one steps in to prevent this assault, everyone acts like it's the way it should be afterwards.<br />
` Thus, these children bond with and develop a trust of people who abuse them, often believing for the rest of their lives that they deserved to be hit. No one apologizes, everyone acts like it's okay, and the child grows up thinking that violence is a lot more important in conflict resolution than it actually is, and will probably continue the cycle of violence, believing it to be necessary.<br />
<br />
This, indeed, mirrors the insidiousness of government propaganda. Making a horrendously bad idea seem like a good idea, such as the "War on Drugs", immensely damages society: This is the main reason why a much higher percentage of the US population is in prison than all other countries.<br />
` Not only does this BS ruin the lives of drug addicts (who already needed help), as well as responsible users, and their families, but it literally treats "nonviolent drug offender" victims as horrible criminals <i>and</i> drives up black market violent crime to an enormous extent.<br />
` On top of that, banning drugs like marijuana and psychedelics has seriously impeded scientists from studying them and discovering their many uses in medicine and neurological research, which are only just now being rediscovered since the 1960's.<br />
` What kind of sick people believe that this anti-drug culture is virtuous? Well, if you are conditioned to think that it is normal, and are emotionally attached to people who think it's a good thing, you may well accept any kind of abuse from the government as justified.<br />
` I could go further with this line of thinking about the government, but I'd rather take a 90-degree turn here before I paint my own self as some kind of extremist heretic. I'm saving that for another time.<br />
<br />
Instead, I shall go back to Michael Shermer and the first time I'd run into him, in the downstairs of Town Hall before a lecture in 2006. (<a href="http://nociceptor.blogspot.com/2006/09/meeting-michael-shermer.html">Blog post about that</a>.) I told him that I had switched out the homeopathic remedy of this guy I'd recently met -- who was of course X.<br />
` "X" kept going on and on about how great his homeopathic remedy was working, for two weeks, until I finally told him The Truth. He didn't believe me at all because it was "working" so well, so I showed him the video evidence.<br />
` Then, X told me that he knew on some level that had I switched the remedy out all along (because it tasted different), that it really hadn't been working as he had just been saying it was, and that I should be ashamed of myself.<br />
` What was I thinking of, trying something so dangerous as to switch his eyedropper bottle of Popov's vodka with Smirnoff? (And yes, I <a href="http://nociceptor.blogspot.com/2006/08/steven-r-olsen-my-pseudo-doctor.html">blogged about that</a> several times as well!)<br />
` It seems ridiculous now, but at the time I felt as though I had committed some horrible offense, so I told Shermer about it. He said something like "That's how I think you should treat 'em."<br />
<br />
That helped me to feel better for a while, but then X played a game where he cast me as some sort of obnoxious debunker out to prove that there is no "spirit-like energy" in drops of plain water (or vodka, in this case) which causes medicinal effects.<br />
` X claimed that I was closed-minded if I didn't try homeopathy to cure my <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_disorder">conversion disorder</a>. I told him that the burden of proof was on him, not me, but he kept telling me that the reason I wouldn't try it was because I was afraid that it would work and that I'd be proven wrong.<br />
` I rolled my eyes when he told me how famous his homeopath was -- wow, he's famous for being a fraud? -- but X insisted that I actually felt impressed by this and just didn't want to admit it. Huh?!<br />
<br />
All of this should have been a warning sign, but just having started life out on my own, away from the abusive people I had just left, I had thought that I had only brought this situation on myself and had to somehow "own up" to it.<br />
<br />
This homeopath ("Dr." Olsen) said that drops of plain vodka or milk sugar, infused with this "energy", worked great on such mental and psychosomatic conditions as constant perceived numbness. This wouldn't surprise me at all, since these symptoms are caused by thoughts and emotions.<br />
` Many times I walked into his building so embarrassed that I covered my face, and he was always puzzled as to why none of the lumps of sugar ever worked on me.<br />
` Just prior to starting this, I had briefly been taking birth control medications for menstrual problems, yet they made me extremely sick, in constant pain, and suicidally despondent. I had just stopped taking them, so I began feeling a lot happier and healthier, and X insisted that this was because of the remedies.<br />
` There was a lot of fighting over this matter, and for this reason I dreaded the prospect of feeling happy. Seven hundred dollars later, when I was able to finally get X to look at the scientific research, he agreed that indeed, homeopathy was bunk and worthless.<br />
` Puzzlingly, he asked me if it was okay if I didn't go back for another remedy. My response was exasperated -- "of course I don't want to go any more broke buying BS, especially now that you believe me!" The only reason I had gone along with this was to prevent him from thinking that I was stupid, stubborn, and narrow-minded.<br />
<br />
In hindsight, of course, I shouldn't have cared at all what he thought of me, or his harmful belief in abject quackery, and should have been spending my time finding another guy. I was continually being approached by men everywhere I went, true, but he did seem a lot smarter and talented than the rest -- because he really was, in some ways.<br />
` More importantly, he was the first person to treat me as an adult who could make decisions, and was even interested in reading some of my blog posts. He was also the first person to validate the fact that I had certain problems that others would not acknowledge.<br />
` Importantly, he was the one who got me to go to college, despite not even having an elementary school education. I wouldn't have thought to even get a two-year degree if it weren't for him -- yet he also seemingly made it as difficult as possible for me, which is why it took five years!<br />
` Over all this time, whenever I had a health/mental/kinesiologic problem that he denied existed, he would tell me that I was crazy, so I thought it was just me. Little did I know, he was refusing to acknowledge my actual problems just like others had done before him.<br />
` Even more, he was keeping me dependent upon him, and surrounded by crazy roommates who would aggravate the PTSD and conversion disorder every day, keep me awake all night, and otherwise interfere with my homework and health -- for six years!<br />
<br />
The first TAM I went to, in 2012 (just after we had kicked out all the crazy roommates), ended in me resolving to leave X, because I had told some skeptics about several worrying experiences I'd had with him.<br />
` There are many dramatic tales, some of which I had blogged about when they happened -- especially the one where he <a href="http://seequine.blogspot.com/2007/02/our-day-in-catalina.html">took part in almost drowning me in the ocean while insisting that I was just being a baby</a> -- but I will share only one brief story here:<br />
` We had just moved from upstairs to downstairs at a terrible run-down place that we knew had gas leaks, plumbing leaks, etc. The gas pipe in this apartment was right by my pillow, and the first night there I smelled mercaptan, the additive in natural gas.<br />
` I told him about it and he merely asked if I was messing with him, because he didn't smell anything. I kept insisting that I did, and he finally said, "I believe that you smell gas, but I think the that reason is because you're hallucinating. Just go to sleep and stop keeping me awake!"<br />
` This, after a lifetime of people trying to convince me that I was crazy, from my dad, the special ed teachers, to doctors, mental institution staff, etc. I mean, this runs deep, and this was hardly the first time he had done something like this to me (re: almost drowning).<br />
` Humiliatingly and despairingly, we went over this night after night <i>for two weeks</i>, until finally, I insisted that he move over to my pillow, and like magic, he said he smelled the gas too! He immediately apologized profusely, found the leak using soapy water (which I didnt know could be done), and shut off the gas. It was that simple -- so, why didn't he do this in the first place?<br />
<br />
I was too busy feeling the relief of finally being vindicated and declared 'sane' once again to really think about the ethics of what had happened. I simply thought this was a case of my not communicating clearly enough, and if only I had better social skills, this type of thing wouldn't happen.<br />
` By this point, I had stopped being attracted to X, which I had blamed on my psychological problems and conversion disorder. Over the years, however, I started to think that perhaps it really was him. So, at TAM 2012, I told some people about these stories, and they were quite alarmed and said that I should never put up with this kind of BS from anyone.<br />
` I agreed, although I realized that it had been years since he had done anything so heinous, so perhaps he had changed?<br />
<br />
I had other complaints about him discouraging me or giving the impression that he thought I was crazy, so I had a little talk with him about that just after TAM. He said that either he had no idea what I was talking about, or that he was joking -- and it's true that I often would get upset because I didn't realize he was joking about something. Or so I thought?<br />
` I figured that perhaps he had changed, so I decided not to just leave him outright. Besides, I didn't have a place to stay besides the house that we were trying to buy -- and later got defrauded by the landlords, etc.<br />
` Also, the day after TAM, I met a hypnotherapist, who not only helped me to work through the PTSD (of 30 years) and conversion disorder (after 9 years), but eventually began pointing out some of the horrible abuse that X was putting me through.<br />
` I thought that perhaps he was just trying to turn me against X, as X would often tell me, but perhaps that was just part of the gaslighting. For a while, it was hard for me to say.<br />
<br />
In September of 2012, X was horribly injured at work, and I took him to he ER. He was unable to get treatment afterwards, and to this day has never been able to open his insurance claim. In October 2012, his mother, who was helping us to buy the house so she could retire there, died unexpectedly, and the rest of the family did their best to prevent X from getting the inheritance.<br />
` Because of my newfound health, I began trying to put together a podcast and writing more on my blog, but conditions became more and more insane. I still blamed myself, and at TAM 2013, I told more people about what was going on, and they said, "You seriously need to leave this jerk."<br />
` I agreed, but it was becoming increasingly difficult as X became more controlling. I would probably have left, except I had to take care of him more and more, while he was becoming more incoherent from stomach paralysis and kept almost dying.<br />
` I had to take him to the emergency room frequently, and began getting seriously ill myself. I had no privacy and it seemed I was always "on call". Even worse, X tried to prevent me from talking to other people about this, and kept talking about how I was trying to kill him through neglect and how horrible his friends thought I was.<br />
<br />
I wrote very few blog posts, although most of them were about the unbelievable bureaucratic BS we were going through, and the abuse I was putting up with:<br />
<a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2013/10/our-very-own-biggest-insurance-fraud.html">Our very own biggest insurance fraud fiasco ever</a><br />
And,<br />
<a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2013/12/just-when-christmas-lulled-us-into.html">Just when Christmas lulled us into a false sense of security...</a><br />
Around this time, I actually started calling him "Dad" because he was pulling the same crap as my own dad -- and his dad as well, of course. That's where he got it from.<br />
` I only stayed around because I had no money to move out, plus he had nobody else to keep him alive and I couldn't let him die. We were supposed to get healthcare and worker's compensation back pay, which would solve both of our problems, but that was not to be:<br />
<br />
In early 2014, I didn't have much internet connectivity and so began using my phone to post bits of this saga on Facebook, including my constant illness and lack of food, hypoglycemia, emaciation, and being able to fit into old pants again. So, my next blog post was majorly abbreviated:<br />
<a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/06/ive-been-hoping-i-would-have-some-good.html">I was hoping I would have some good news to share...</a><br />
` In this one, I mentioned that on April 1, 2014, X had an appointment with a doctor who said that he would sign the insurance form, without even necessarily needing to examine the injury first. Once in the office, the doctor not only refused to sign the form, but wouldn't even look for evidence that the injury existed, on the grounds that he wouldn't find any!<br />
<br />
Worst April Fool's prank ever.<br />
<br />
Later on that day, X had two doctors laughing about what an idiot that guy was for not being able to diagnose an injury the size of a breakfast sausage. All this palpating on the injury, and their inability to refill his pain pill prescription, set him up for disaster later on.<br />
` My mom was visiting at the time, and what I didn't mention in that post was that she had gone to bed at about 7:30 (10:30 her time) and I was up until 11:30 taking care of the various grow rooms. (We had replaced our crazy roommates with marijuana plants -- they are so much easier to get along with!)<br />
` However, I didn't get to go to bed yet because X was sprawled out on the living room floor as he usually was, shaking uncontrollably, sweating profusely, and vomiting. I helped him to replace his shirts and puke buckets until 2:30 in the morning, when I finally went to bed.<br />
` Right after this, X began convulsing to the point where had to go to the ER, and he roused my mom at around 3 a.m. (6:00 her time). As she had gotten plenty of sleep and I was desperately in need of it, she didn't bother waking me up and took him to the ER herself -- where they gave him a drug for stomach paralysis, which happened to be exactly what he needed.<br />
<br />
I woke up the next day at 8:30, when they had just gotten back from the ER. He was already recovering from the toxic buildup and malnutrition that was making him so incoherent, frequently unable to walk, and falling asleep in random places.<br />
` It was amazing how X almost seemed back to normal, I thought, until weeks later, when he started to tell me how ashamed my mom was at my not taking him to the Emergency Room. Yes, really.<br />
` What kind of loving partner was I to cave into the sleep deprivation and make my poor mother drive him all the way to the ER at three in the morning? No matter that I was unaware of the whole drama and otherwise incapable of driving if I had been awake.<br />
` I talked to my mom about this and she said that nothing of the sort ever crossed her mind, and that she thought there was no problem at all at the time. I did, too. She said that she was actually proud of me and my dedication to keeping him alive, as well as the plants.<br />
` Which, by the way, were instrumental in his continued recovery and ability to get back to work in the absence of medical treatment, thanks to his invention of super-strong cannabis cream. I've written an article about this amazing story on another website:<br />
<a href="http://www.worldcannabis.net/2014/09/the-power-of-super-concentrated-cannabis-oil/">The Power of Super-Concentrated Cannabis Oil</a> (Yes, those are his fingers and marijuana plants.)<br />
<br />
What I gradually came to realize, with help, was that he was making me doubt myself all the time. For example, he would often act threateningly towards me while we were crammed in the tiny, brightly lit, very noisy grow rooms.<br />
` I would tell him that I was feeling seriously overwhelmed and frightened by this, and he would say that my "real" problem was that I would rather just be lazy and sit around all day, claiming to be ill. Except, I actually was ill quite a bit, especially with continual respiratory infections and isopropyl alcohol poisoning from cannabis oil production.<br />
` Once, when we were cloning plants or some such, he was starting to freak me out and I said, "I don't want to be around you when you're like this." and left the room. Instead of trying to apologize or at least ask me to come back, he kept on working by himself until he needed to go to the ER.<br />
` I didn't make him do that, he did it to himself. Yet, he blamed me for making him need to go to the Emergency Room. Yet, he still talked about planning to get married, and, I reasoned, why would he want to marry me if he thought I was capable of hurting him like that?<br />
<br />
Some seriously scary gaslighting continued after TAM 2014, during which we were forced to vacate the house (easy for me, being in Las Vegas and all), and he managed to find a place that would allow us to keep our cats.<br />
` Despite all the insanity, after he was through the methodone withdrawal symptoms, I eventually managed to pull myself out of the gaslighting enough to have a few good times and keep myself relatively healthy.<br />
` Sometimes, I just fell back into the insanity, both because of his treatment of me, and because the new place was also full of crazy people. And fleas. Still, I did what I could to keep my goals in mind, about writing in Skepic Magazine and all that, and I chronicled a bit of that here:<br />
<a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/09/surviving-and-keeping-sane-whilst.html">Surviving and keeping sane whilst trying to transcend the asylum</a><br />
<br />
Since my most recent newfound realization, I have felt as though X has a rifle pointed at me, and that I'm a deer. All I am to him is prey, and I cannot describe to you how creepy this feels. He has been targeting me all these years, undermining my competence, manipulating me into helplessness and victimhood.<br />
` This even applies to something as innocuous as getting cats, which I was reluctant to do. It was just another way for him to control me. For example, it is important to wash your cat's dishes every day and clean their litter box several times a day, which I did -- and which he so often put me down for doing.<br />
` He would insist that bacterial slime in the water dish was perfectly healthy for the cats, and sometimes he would put canned food in their dish for many days in a row, and shamed me into not cleaning up the dried crusts for weeks.<br />
` And don't get me started on his conflicts over my insistence on cleaning the litter box, and my "unreasonable sensitivity" to the particles of cat shit in the air (and thus my mouth) when I'm eating. By the way, as a kid, my dad would insist on having a filthy litter box next to the dinner table and would punish me for wanting to eat upstairs or at least clean it.<br />
` So yeah, I've had enough of this, and have been glad to get rid of the litter box when possible. Over the years, I have been quite glad whenever this happened, but even then X said I was crazy for thinking that it took two months for the smell to finally become unnoticeable to me. But it actually did -- ha!<br />
<br />
And it's still going on. Just a couple of weeks ago, I was over at the apartment, visiting my cats and my belongings, when Miss Dilly had just demonstrated her lack of understanding of the concept of 'burying'.<br />
` X said he would take care of it, but a while later it still smelled really bad despite him turning on the bathroom fan. Finally, I discovered that he hadn't cleaned it up at all, but rather lit a stick of incense nearby.<br />
` Right, because cleaning the litter box more than once a day is waaay excessive. Even so, I'm really going to miss my cats, and they will miss me so much! They already do, since I'm not around much.<br />
<div>
<br />
` If all goes well, it won't be long before I move the rest of my things out (mostly books) and leave him to pay rent alone. Not only is he making more money, but it turns out the devastating lack of a tax return last year was a mistake, so that was just filed. Even better, he may soon receive a settlement for never having his injury claim opened -- if not, it's onto law suit land.<br />
` I may not have a place to move all of the rest of my stuff into, other than into another storage facility, but I'll do whatever I need to do to survive. Always have.<br />
<br />
I don't much like playing the role of 'prey'. It sickens me to think of my situation this whole time. But I'm glad to be able to share what I've learned on this blog, in the hopes that it helps others in similar situations -- plus, it reaaaaally feels good to finally get this off my chest!<br />
<br />
Now that my frontal lobes are working, I'm better able to read and write -- it's amazing what a difference this kind of stress makes! My personality keeps changing faster and faster, and I've gone back to reading as well! I've just read a large portion of Skeptic Magazine, which I've started getting in the mail once again, along with Scientific American Mind.<br />
` I've missed this stuff, and now that I'm not constantly racking what's left of my mind to solve all these serious problems, I can go back to feeding it. And, yes, even playing the part of mad science writer -- and podcaster!<br />
<br />
[<b>Edit:</b> If all this wasn't crazy enough, something else happened the same day Michael Shermer was in town, which I mentioned here: <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2015/02/a-real-life-death-defying-tale-and-some.html">A real-life death-defying tale... and some unrelated cool photos!</a>]</div>
Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-26025434920805340162015-01-12T14:10:00.000-08:002015-01-18T11:22:52.107-08:00Controversy and yet more adventures in Hypno-LandThough I've written many more emails to people (besides poor Geo), they don't have much to do with mad science, warping minds, or pictures of my back side, and thus would be out of place on this blog. Facebook, on the other hand, has some material I could use, although being a social media spot, it comes in bits and pieces.<br />
` That can only mean one thing -- I must put some time into editing posts for this blog. Not only that, but getting onto the internet so that I can do research and check facts. I did none of that for my last post, Adventures in Hypno-Land which was an email I wrote almost a year ago.<br />
` Though I've learned a lot since then, I'm still going to need to learn more in order to continue writing about hypnosis, and pretty much anything else that interests me.<br />
<br />
As for this post, this is actually late in coming because my first draft got deleted. So, I shall do what I can to put forth even less effort than my last attempt -- by using Facebook material that I saved on WordPad from the last time I connected my computer to the internet.<br />
<br />
I have noticed that hypnosis is one of those little-understood topics on which people in the skeptical community have a wide range of opinions, and occasionally I wind up with pieces of this on Facebook.<br />
` Some skeptics are stage hypnotists while others have told me that stage hypnotism is nothing but fakery. Some are hypnotherapists, and some, like the California Skeptics, kicked a hypnotherapist off their Facebook page for not "admitting" that he's a fraud.<br />
<br />
As for me, I have an unusual angle on hypnosis in that I've experienced a lot of it, have been dramatically changed by some of it, although have studied a lot more practical methodology than the actual science involved.<br />
` At the bare minimum, hypnosis involves establishing contact with someone, a first suggestion, penetrating through the critical faculties, and producing phenomena that the subject commonly feels are involuntarily.<br />
` It could involve what is informally called "trance", or could be done during what looks like a normal conversation.<br />
<br />
Case in point, my podcasting co-host "Dr. Hypno" was once at a bar where he met someone who thought that hypnotherapy was interesting. This guy wanted to quit smoking but didn't think that he could be hypnotized.<br />
` After a hypnotic conversation that started with "I don't think I can hypnotize you, so lets just talk about it", the guy went out for a smoke and couldn't even get the cigarette to his face. He started laughing and said "no way, what the f!"<br />
` He was so shocked that he was afraid to talk to Dr. Hypno ever again. Such is the curse of that level of effectiveness.<br />
<br />
Indeed, Dr. Hypno is one of those people who can walk up to a complete stranger on the sidewalk and hypnotize them in seconds without using the word 'hypnosis' or 'trance'. Just as quickly, he can stick a person's hand to a table using conversational hypnosis.<br />
` Unsettlingly, he has even installed an instant induction shortcut on me, and then hypnotized me to forget what this shortcut is. As far as I know, he didn't use it until six months later, and when he did, I could only see multi-colored stars when he activated it.<br />
` It still worked last summer at a workshop by Rintu Basu, before Dr. Hypno handed me off to another hypnotist for further phenomena, some of which worked and some which did not.<br />
<br />
You may think it's tremendously creepazoidal to know that some mysterious hypnotic 'induction switch' has been installed in your own psyche. I agree, and would add that my mind contains several other post-hypnotic suggestions, just waiting to be unleashed at the right time. All I can do is to warn others not to trigger them.<br />
<br />
Even more creepazoidally, I used to know a hypnotist who would orgasm in response to anyone snapping their fingers. Why she chose such a non-specific cue for a bedroom-related suggestion, I'll never know, but I've seen what it does to her first hand, in public, and found it to be hilarious.<br />
<br />
Let's just say, after this incident, she was sent a YouTube link to the Addams Family theme song in appreciation.<br />
<br />
This same hypnotist has also been to a lot of hypnosis seminars that were recorded, and thus appears on many training DVDs. One of them is a stage hypnosis course, and when the teacher snaps his fingers and makes an off-color joke, you can hear a burst of laughter from her.<br />
` Later, in a segment when she is sitting up on stage, he snaps his fingers several times and you can see the look of terror on her face as she squirms in her chair and tries to play it cool. I rolled with laughter at this, thinking about how nobody else there had a clue about what was happening.<br />
<br />
I am no expert in hypnosis, but I am acquainted with hypnotists who test whether the books match the street. It's an evolving art form and every year they discard more obsolete models, such as the trance model, and the conscious/unconscious model.<br />
` And, I would argue, that although psychology-oriented academics who are not specialized in hypnosis may know a lot about it, they are also not experts. So, imagine my surprise when I ran into two of these on Facebook, both of which are prominent in Skepticdom.<br />
<br />
<a name='more'></a>I shall refer to them as "A" and "B", without revealing who they are. Here is some of the text from the comment thread:<br />
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<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204536956798178:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204536956798178:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540131637547:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author" style="color: #141823; font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540131637547:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold;">B </span></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540131637547:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body" style="color: #141823; font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">Also, post-hypnotic suggestions rarely work (which is why hypnosis is not usually effective in fighting addiction), so the idea that you can make someone forget what happened is basically bunk. During hypnosis, people don't "forget" numbers, etc. They have a difficult time focusing on the task of retrieving the information because they are vulnerable to the suggestion that they can't do it. It's not a memory issue, but an attention issue.</span></div>
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<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540159718249:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540159718249:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540159718249:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540159718249:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">A </span></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540159718249:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">Aaaand B brings us to the old debate of memory permanence and whether forgetting is an encoding or retrieval issue. <span class="emoticon emoticon_smile" style="background-image: url(https://z-1-static.xx.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v2/yT/r/u-FvntoxabH.png); background-position: 0px -7999px; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: auto; display: inline-block; height: 16px; vertical-align: top; width: 16px;" title=":)"></span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540159718249:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
<div class="fsm fwn fcg UFICommentActions" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540159718249:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.3" style="clear: both; color: #9197a3; font-size: 12px; padding-top: 2px;">
<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540175798651:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$0:0" style="color: #141823; font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">But yes, </span>B<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540175798651:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="color: #141823; font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"> is totally right. You can't make someone forget what happened with hypnosis. If they could, I think a lot of people who have experienced trauma might be interested in some hypnosis.</span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">I didn't mention it, but the reason I really got into hypnosis was to re-frame and re-color my traumatic memories in order to change their meaning to me so that they no longer control my life.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">It was the beginning of my more or less complete recovery from 30 years of PTSD and 9 years of <a href="http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/conversion-disorder/basics/definition/con-20029533">conversion disorder</a>. In fact, I have been able to control the numbness of the conversion disorder to the extent that I can actually block out pain when I need to, as I've described in previous posts.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">I certainly don't want to forget what happened to me, and no longer feel that my memories are unbearable to recall or live with.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">I responded to this by mentioning that I have experienced a bit of amnesia for an event that happened while I was hypnotized.</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">` While it was difficult to load up any web pages from my slow iPhone connection while riding in my car, I hit the 'paste' button, and this link just happened to have been on the clipboard from pasting it into a message for someone else:</span></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540435685148:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540435685148:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">A </span></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540435685148:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540435685148:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Synthesis of a body of scientific research by Googling. Cool?</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540435685148:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540435685148:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$2:0">Not sure what you want to say. I'm not reading that whole wikipedia article in order to guess.</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540435685148:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540436765175:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540436765175:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">B</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540436765175:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540436765175:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">You know, Spoony, we can all Google and link to Wikipedia, but some of us have studied and even taught the stuff.</span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204540436765175:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544221219784:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544221219784:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544221219784:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544221219784:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544221219784:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544221219784:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">I've studied hypnosis and have hypnotized people.</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544221219784:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544221219784:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544221219784:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">And when I was supposed to have forgotten the number 3 I didn't actually forget it but couldn't say it or conceptualize it.</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544221219784:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544256660670:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1061027523&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544256660670:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/ben.radford.58?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544256660670:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Ben Radford</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544256660670:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544256660670:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544256660670:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><a class="profileLink" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544256660670:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$range0:0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">Spoony</a><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544256660670:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">, I'm curious: How do you know that you've hypnotized someone? Is there some way to be sure, some clear sign that distinguishes it from non-hypnosis, or do you just trust what the person tells you?</span></span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204544256660670:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545635415138:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545635415138:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545635415138:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545635415138:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545635415138:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545635415138:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">When you hypnotize the person in front of you using conversational hypnosis and the person behind you gets sucked in unintentionally, it's a sign that the person you weren't trying to hypnotize is hypnotized -- I've done that!</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545635415138:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545635415138:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545635415138:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">That's a good question, though. I think that when you can put a fifty dollar bill in front of someone and suggest that they can't reach it because their feet are stuck to the floor, and they can't lift their feet up, that's another sign. Otherwise, why wouldn't they take the money?</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545635415138:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545645535391:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545645535391:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">B</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545645535391:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545645535391:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">"conversational hypnosis"? Sorry, I've gotta call bullshit.</span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545645535391:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545678376212:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545678376212:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545678376212:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545678376212:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545678376212:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545678376212:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">No such thing as a hypnotic state.</span></span><br />
<ul class="UFIList" data-reactid=".52" style="font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; list-style-type: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">
<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545678376212:0" style="margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545678376212:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545716457164:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0" style="font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"> No, but they could have had the money and apparently believed that they couldn't get it. It's a common trick but very subtle to pull off.</span> </span></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545678376212:0" style="margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545716457164:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body" style="font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">Ok, Ben, remarkable involuntary reactions. Like pain tolerance to surgery. How about a person who has smoked all their life and now gets sick if they pick up a cigarette, and simply can't smoke anymore. And they tried to quit before and apparently couldn't.</span></li>
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<span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">How do I test whether or not a person is hypnotized? Make people move involuntarily, hand stick, not be able to open their eyes. It's not proof, though.</span></div>
<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545678376212:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545678376212:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545678376212:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$10:0">Ericksonian hypnosis, works on damn near everybody, unless they put up their guard. ... You just create the longest sentence ever, the more you say, the more their defense mechanisms go offline, until they are so focused on what you're saying that they lose track of what you said earlier and their locus of control becomes increasingly towards you, and what's interesting about that, as you listen to the sounds in the room around you, is that it even can work in text form, so while you are reading this, you can get drawn into a focus state where you become aware of the sounds..</span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span></div>
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<li class="UFIRow UFIComment display UFIComponent" data-ft="{"tn":"R9"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545678376212:0" style="background-color: #f6f7f8; margin: 0px 12px; padding: 4px 0px; position: relative; word-wrap: break-word;"><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545678376212:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545678376212:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545746297910:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author" style="font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545746297910:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">A</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545746297910:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0" style="font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545746297910:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body" style="font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">No, just the fact that they accept the suggestions doesn't necessarily mean they were hypnotized. What then about the studies showing same effects with suggestion in absence of hypnosis?</span></span></li>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545771898550:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545771898550:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545771898550:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545771898550:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545771898550:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545771898550:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">A, I think you are confused -- Hypnosis is a process to get people to accept suggestions and is a suggestion in itself.</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545771898550:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545771898550:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545771898550:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">Posthypnotic amnesia is retrievable. I still cannot remember the event that I was instructed to forget, but it is entirely retrievable.</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545771898550:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545777378687:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545777378687:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">B</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545777378687:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545777378687:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">Spoony, A isn't confused, you are. I realize that you have no idea what her background is, but your comment is actually funny.</span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545777378687:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545781138781:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545781138781:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545781138781:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545781138781:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span style="font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">A, I take it you are a hypnotist?</span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545782338811:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545782338811:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">B</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545782338811:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545782338811:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">Oh, jesus christ. </span><span style="font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">*facepalm*</span></div>
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545783258834:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545783258834:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545783258834:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">A</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545783258834:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span style="font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">No, I'm a cognitive psychologist with specific expertise in memory.</span></div>
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545789618993:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545789618993:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545789618993:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">B</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545789618993:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545789618993:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">And you've contradicted yourself at least twice. How can something be "retrievable" if you still can't remember it?</span></div>
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<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545790939026:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">This conversation has become ridiculous.</span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545790939026:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545797419188:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545797419188:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">For the record, I taught psychology (including introductory which includes hypnosis, cognitive, and other courses, mostly upper-division) for about 10 years. I'm telling you that if you really want to understand this stuff, you need to stop Googling and go back to school.</span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545797419188:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545799299235:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545799299235:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545799299235:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545799299235:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545799299235:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">I don't google any of this stuff, I learn it from hypnotists!!</span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545799299235:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545818739721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545818739721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">What makes you think there has to be induction for there to be hypnosis?</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545818739721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545818739721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545818739721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">Great, A, how many people have you hypnotized?</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545818739721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545818739721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545818739721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">I haven't tried to retrieve the memory!</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545818739721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545818739721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545818739721:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$16:0">Ridiculous is not an argument.</span></span></div>
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<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545824819873:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545824819873:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author" style="font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545824819873:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">A</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545824819873:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0" style="font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545824819873:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body" style="font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">How many people have I hypnotized? Classrooms at a time when I've done it as a teaching demo? This is pointless. Goodnight!</span></div>
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<div class="UFICommentContentBlock" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545832380062:0.0.$right.0.$left.0" style="padding-right: 12px; position: relative;">
<div class="UFICommentContent" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545832380062:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0">
<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545832380062:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545832380062:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">B</span></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545832380062:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545832380062:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">" What makes you think there has to be induction for there to be hypnosis? "</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545832380062:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545832380062:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545832380062:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">What does that mean? Do you understand what is meant by "induction"?</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545832380062:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545838580217:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545838580217:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">Yeah, it is pointless. I'm done, too. Goodnight.</span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545838580217:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545852380562:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545852380562:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545852380562:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Spoony Quine</a> </span></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545852380562:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545852380562:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">"It's pointless " is not an argument, it's a put-down.</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545852380562:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545852380562:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545852380562:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">An induction is an alleged formal process to "begin" the hypnotic process, even though the process has already begun. It's basically non-falsifiable.</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545852380562:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545852380562:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545852380562:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">A, how do you know if your students are hypnotized?</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545852380562:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545879421238:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545879421238:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">A </span></span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545879421238:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">Spoony, the literature is clear and I have read enough of it to know what the hell I'm talking about. Half of what you're saying is just words. Its not important to me whether I convince you of anything. I don't even know what you're disagreeing with. No one has said that hypnosis isn't possible or real.</span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204545879421238:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546001304285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546001304285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546001304285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546001304285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546001304285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546001304285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">I believe I was saying that hypnosis is just a formal type of suggestion process, there's nothing special about it. People go in and out of degrees of suggestibility all the time, and all a hypnotist does is leverage that fact.</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546001304285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546001304285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546001304285:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">"Half of what you're saying is just words" is a put-down, as is "it's not important to me whether I convince you of anything." Of course, being a psychologist you would know that.</span></span></div>
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<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546083546341:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546083546341:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Hypnosis is a specialized subject, most psychologists don't know jack about it, and most hypnotists don't know much either. That's because once they learn hypnosis from one "expert" they stop learning. It's like getting a black belt in karate and then getting your ass kicked because you don't know how to fight, you're just beginning, you need to cross-train.</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546083546341:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546083546341:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$2:0">Hypnosis is a very deep and subtle art form. You can teach card tricks but that doesn't make you a magician.</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546083546341:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546083546341:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546083546341:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$6:0">Also there is no such thing as susceptibility to hypnosis because everyone is partly hypnotized all the time, in a sense. Different techniques work in different situations on different people in different contexts, just like martial arts.</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546083546341:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546083546341:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546083546341:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$10:0">A lot of university studies on hypnosis involve non-hypnotists reading a script. Yet, in the real world, hypnotists have to do it differently each time for it to work effectively. That's why the hypnotizeability scale and 'levels of trance' has been debunked.</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546083546341:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546083546341:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546083546341:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$14:0">Do you know what the automatic imagination model is? It cuts out the hypnotic "induction" completely.</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546083546341:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546087226433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1307296112&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546087226433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/badrescher?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546087226433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">B</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546087226433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546087226433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546087226433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Spoony, you seem to be confused about what a cognitive psychologist is and perhaps what psychologists do in general (they don't analyze language for hidden meaning). </span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546087226433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546087226433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546087226433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">It is apparent from how little sense much of what you've said here makes that you don't have a full understanding of what hypnosis is/is not -- at least not what the scientific evidence says about it -- nor should you. It's not an easy thing to fully grasp without a background in brain function, memory, attention, and the fundamentals of states of consciousness (all taught to various depths in undergraduate psych courses). </span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546087226433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546087226433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546087226433:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">There is nothing wrong with not knowing this stuff. What's wrong is chattering on as if you're an expert.</span></span></div>
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<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546091106530:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">Your comments are pseudoscience, Spoony. Classic, in fact.</span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546091106530:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$0:0">Pseudoscientific in what way? Please form an argument!</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$4:0">That comment was a pretty big argument from authority, from the person who doesn't even know what conversational hypnosis is. Erickson? Watch his technique:</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$7:0" /><a class="" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$range0:0" dir="ltr" href="http://vimeo.com/31050500" rel="nofollow" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">http://vimeo.com/31050500</a><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">You haven't made a single claim, you're just saying you're an expert and I'm not, therefore I must be wrong.</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546099786747:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$6:0">Neither of you have made any arguments.</span></span><br />
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546105906900:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546105906900:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546105906900:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546105906900:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546105906900:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">Nice ad hominem. Really vicious, too. And who said anything about analyzing language for hidden meaning? Red herring much?</span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546105906900:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546134387612:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546134387612:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">B</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546134387612:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546134387612:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">Jesus, this is a waste of time. Believe what you want to believe about yourself and what you know. To anyone else reading this thread, I'd ask that you pick up a textbook written in the last decade on the matter -- a real textbook -- or maybe go to the academic literature. I'm done here.</span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546134387612:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">I'm staring at an entire bookshelf covering this subject at the moment.</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">Way to dominate the thread and speak for others, and dismiss me like a child. NPD much? Where are you exactly in the dark triad?</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$3:0" /><a class="_58cn" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$range0:0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/hamsterwheel" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; text-decoration: none;"><span aria-label="hashtag" class="_58cl" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$range0:0.0" style="color: #9197a3;">#</span><span class="_58cm" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$range0:0.1">hamsterwheel</span></a></span></span></span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546144587867:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546166308410:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546166308410:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">A</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546166308410:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546166308410:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">Omg now she's going to explain NPD to B. You couldn't write better comedy.</span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546166308410:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.5"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546178348711:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class=" UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546178348711:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546178348711:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0.0">Spoony Quine</span></a></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546178348711:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546178348711:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546178348711:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546178348711:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546178348711:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">So, you're baiting me by making up another mind-reading ad hominem attack.</span><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546178348711:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546178348711:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546178348711:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">Again, not an argument.</span></span><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546178348711:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546178348711:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546178348711:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546178348711:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".52.1:3:1:$comment10204470418334758_10204546178348711:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">Sophistry 101.</span></span></span></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span></div>
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<span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">Sure, I may need to do more research about hypnosis, but that doesn't mean I'm always wrong when academics say so. It also doesn't entitle skeptics to be jerks to people they think are crackpots. </span></span><span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">Shortly thereafter, I messaged someone else who 'liked' my comments, and he had this to say:</span></div>
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333339691162px; line-height: 19.9333343505859px; white-space: pre-wrap;">I thought you were cool and correct in identifying the fallacious reasoning thrown your way.... I am a research psych person with some study of hypnosis but would never claim to be an expert or that we have all the answers. I have seen some of the things you describe, and am familiar with Ericksonian ideas. I have my ideas and biases about that, but thought B and A were just not interested in dialogue. Of course FB doesn't lend itself to great discussion.....and some of us skeptics...sometimes....are just dicks lol.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333339691162px; line-height: 19.9333343505859px; white-space: pre-wrap;">I think you could certainly find examples of people not able or willing to question what they implicitly assume. I think key, is whether aim is to understand perspectives/situation of another, or to debunk, or to promote a view,etc. Skeptics get tired or frustrated too easily with trying to understand/sympathize/educate and so they go to arrogant/authority stance. Spelling out our assumptions and biases (e.g. Their reliance on narrow psych research, and Your reliance on personal experiences and social ties?) are all key steps. Good investigators have to watch out for that. Another issue for me is that FB seldom offers a good context for clarification and authentic give and take. Too much posturing is promoted. I am a social psychologist, so it is all about the social setting and social conformity lol. Yeah, who was it in skeptical community that did the skeptics as dick speech? Work up something, illustrate, and suggest help for us all..send it to BenRadford for SI hee hee.</span></blockquote>
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You know, besides writing an article for Skeptic, I should also write an article for Skeptical Inquirer. That's been my goal, besides creating content for this blog. I even have a rough idea of what this article would be about:<br />
<span style="background-color: white;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">No matter what else I am wrong about, I will most likely stand by my assertion that hypnosis, including hypnotherapy, is an art form, just like psychotherapy. I think this partly explains why psychotherapy is usually worthless -- some forms of talk therapy do work, but it depends on the practitioner.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">` In my experience, the abuse and rejection I got from dozens of 'therapists' and other 'mental health professionals' made my problems worse, but even in the absence of abuse it was not worth my time.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">I was finally able to find a cognitive behavioral therapist who was specialized in treating PTSD, and who was anything but abusive. Yet, he failed to inform me that I was being abused in my own home (thus shutting down my ability to cognitate), and even more importantly, his entire practice was based on a fallacy:</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">` The problem lies in the words 'treating' and 'PTSD' -- post-traumatic stress disorder. It wasn't until I discovered hypnotherapy, reframing and denominalization that I learned that PTSD is not a disorder and thus it cannot be 'treated' as illnesses can.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">` Indeed, PTSD is a process, not a 'thing'. It doesn't have a size, weight or color; it is a verb, an action. It may be controlled involuntarily for the most part, but once you become aware of the automatic processes, it is possible to change them consciously, just like any other habit.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">In other words, you can unhypnotize yourself from creating self-destructive habits. The role of hypnotic suggestion comes into this process mostly to reinforce new habits over the old ones, including the suggestion that this is even possible to do, which of course it is.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">` With the suggestions operating at an involuntary level, it is not necessary to spend a lot of brainpower just 'thinking' your mind into a new frame. Instead, it largely seems to happen by itself, which is handy when you live in an abusive situation and can't use your frontal lobes very much.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">Many people don't want to accept that they can control "their PTSD", and tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about and have never suffered like them. Of course, when I tell them my own tales of horror, they usually curl up into the fetal position and urinate on themselves.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">The truth is, if your brain can be so profoundly changed by trauma, it can be changed just as profoundly, if not more, in order to reverse that process.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">The PTSD process arises when someone is traumatized and is unable to deal with the after-effects. It's like an injury -- for example, when you break a bone, it is because the bone was unable to withstand the stress and it shatters.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">` When someone's mind is unable to take the trauma, the mind shatters. Some people are able to recover fairly well, while others, like me, who have been traumatized repeatedly and abused continually for decades, may well develop an unhealthy strategy for dealing with it.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">As an analogy, it is like limping on a broken foot. Limping is a strategy to deal with an injury, but it makes no sense to limp once the injury is healed -- you're only hobbling yourself. Of course, it isn't quite that simple.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">` I actually do rehabilitation exercises to help undo the damage done by limping on a foot that broke 18 years ago and never healed right, thanks to medical neglect. (Yes, this is related to the glute-oriented humor on this blog.)</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">` My entire body is affected by this and it has been a real challenge to be able to sit up, stand, and walk straight -- I must get my muscles and tendons into such condition that they can work properly in order to really control them.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">` Not only does being able to move properly affect my body, but it heavily affects my inner states, bringing me a feeling of power rather than helplessness and fear.</span></span><span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"> Unsurprisingly, my mind must undergo an analogous type of rehabilitation process:</span><br />
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">` I must work on stretching, exercising, and better controlling my mental processes in order to stop myself from PTSD-ing. That way, people who ought to be in prison and other jerks are not the ones in control of my mind -- I am.</span><br />
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">The traumatic recollections, the triggers, the paralyzing anxiety and overwhelming terror -- and also the numbness caused by the 'conversion disorder' -- I discovered that I was doing all of that to myself. Once I became aware of the mechanisms, I was able to control the symptoms, and can even use them to my advantage.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">` Although hypnotherapists are not legally permitted to 'treat' PTSD, mine simply helped me to 'manage my thoughts, feelings and behaviors' surrounding it until my experience of the symptoms disappeared. Legally, I still 'have' PTSD, yet this is the first time in my life that I can remember not suffering from it.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">So, not only is hypnotherapy an art form, but it can be used in deprogramming people from this idea that they "have" a "mental illness". Probably most forms of "depression" and "anxiety" are the same way. How you think, and how you respond to those thoughts, is ultimately how to control so-called "mood disorders".</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">` Why are these emotional/thought processes inappropriately diagnosed by psychiatrists? Because without a diagnosis, the psychiatrist cannot prescribe medication in order to "treat" the "disorder". Some have told me that because having a diagnosis allows you to be treated in our medical system, that means we should continue diagnosing people with "mental illnesses".</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span>
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">Yet, I think that to insist that people think about their problem in an inaccurate and counterproductive way, just so that a doctor can prescribe a medication or talk therapy, is completely backwards and unscientific. It is insisting that bureaucracy is more important than actually helping people to understand how to fix their own mental health issues.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">` I'm not the only one who thinks this way. It just so happens that a psychiatrist I am somewhat acquainted with agrees as well. He would have lost his job teaching this stuff at Central Washington University if he had tried to speak out about it, but now that he is retired, he has nothing to fear.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">` I will tell him to write a book about it next chance I get.</span></span><br />
<span style="color: #141823; font-family: Times, Times New Roman, serif;"><span style="line-height: 17.0666675567627px;"><br /></span></span></div>
For now, I shall follow my ambitions in deprogramming people from very wrong ideas they have about their own minds. Sure, I must learn a lot more before I can do this, but that's never stopped me from moving forward.<br />
` And if I should say anything too controversial for some people's tastes, I hope they remember this...<br />
<br />
<iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/FrFRbGjUtJk?rel=0" width="640"></iframe>Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-33546585164926107202015-01-02T14:35:00.000-08:002015-01-02T14:51:36.458-08:00Adventures in Hypno-LandI actually began this piece last winter, when my ex was still claiming that I had been hypnotized to physically attack him and then forget afterward. That, he said, would explain why I had no idea what he was talking about.<br />
` I asked several people, including hypnotists, and even Jamy Ian Swiss, whether or not this made any sense. They helped me to trust my own judgment and see that he was just trying to make me think that I was crazy. (See: <a href="http://www.thehotline.org/2014/05/what-is-gaslighting/">gaslighting</a>.)<br />
<br />
Just after finishing this piece in early May, I witnessed my very own podcasting co-host, "Dr. Hypno" actually hypnotize one of his clients on our way out of the grocery store. She told me that she had been smoking since age 11 and had stopped after one session with him.<br />
` Since the tar was finally leaving her lungs, she had developed bronchitis. Although she was recovering, she said she had wanted a suggestion to help her breathe freely again. Once we were in the parking lot, he did a handshake induction and made the appropriate suggestions as her husband and I watched in awe.<br />
` She was astonished and elated at how she could suddenly breathe better -- apparently, even your lung functioning has a great deal to do with suggestible involuntary responses, as with asthma.<br />
<br />
I confess that pieces of this article started out as a blog post last winter, yet I had neither the brain functioning or internet access to make into a proper article with lots of info and references aside from my own notes, knowledge, and personal experiences.<br />
` So, I decided it would be best to adapt into an email for the edification of, yes, Mr. George Hrab -- a process which I have mentioned <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/09/surviving-and-keeping-sane-whilst.html#more">in this post</a>.<br />
<br />
As it would take a great deal of work to adapt it into a blog post, I'm going to leave it fairly much as-is. So, now you get to see the 'missing link' between my occasional (and relatively short) "normal" fan emails to Geo and the others I've already posted on this blog:<br />
<br />
<a name='more'></a>...You seem to be the type to seek novel information and experiences, which shows in your creative endeavors. Yet, you have said you haven't had many dramatic changes in your life which have challenged you to exponentially shift your priorities, attitudes and thinking/life habits in a short amount of time.<br />
<br />
In other words, you like to expand your mind and improve what you do normally, yet you don't seem to have been challenged to rethink your life to the point where it all breaks down and you have to rebuild your lifestyle and assumptions -- thereby dramatically accelerating your personal development and inspiring new meaning and ideas in your works.<br />
<br />
As you've implied on your show, the overwhelming preponderance of your mental and creative development has probably ticked by rather steadily, if unpredictably, over the years. So, what if you could condition your mind to make itself increase your creative output and skill?<br />
<br />
You've also mentioned how you're not getting any younger, so perhaps if you could accelerate your creative-growth processes, you would find that grand masterwork within you before you die.<br />
<br />
As someone whose life is regularly turned upside down, my mind is often forced to see a new horizon, so I can't really stay mired in a rut forever. This would normally be a good thing if I didn't tend to blunder into an even deeper rut before being forced to take my mind off-road.<br />
<br />
The trick is to avoid being blinded by the light at the end of the reality tunnel.<br />
<br />
Of course, you're probably wondering whether this sort of broad and metaphorical verbiage is hiding something insipid and potentially dangerous. That something actually is potentially dangerous, although I would also describe it as inspiring and invigorating as well.<br />
<br />
This is especially so because I've learned it from the aforementioned world-class hypnotist (my co-host "Dr. Hypno"). He helped me stop the PTSD and the conversion disorder, and is now teaching me to be a street hypnotist of doom.<br />
<br />
The carrier pigeon message was meant for him, by the way, as it barged unexpectedly into the middle of our conversation on (April) 26th. It came from another hypnotist I had been talking to earlier at a meetup, and whose (now former) girlfriend was attracted to Dr. Hypno. Frankly, I don't blame her.<br />
<br />
I was telling D.H. about something that happened on a recent hypnosis-related trip of hers when I stuttered, feeling as though I couldn't continue speaking, and then did so anyway. But instead of going on with what I was saying, I delivered a hypnotic "cockblocking" command in the same monotone and measured way that I dimly remembered this hypnotist using while we were chatting in the parking lot.<br />
<br />
The command was unusually slow, didn't make sense to me as it came out of my own mouth, and from what I remember, ended with, "Their relationship is very important to them."<br />
<br />
This is obviously hypnotic language, partly because it uses words such as 'relationship'. Hypnotists secretly know there are no such things as relationships, nor importance, outside of our monkey brains.<br />
<br />
Because a string of ambiguous language had involuntarily spewed from my mouth, I added, "Ehhh... I meant..." and then repeated the exact same message in the exact same monotone and measured way as before.<br />
<br />
Now, if this had happened to you, completely unexpectedly, how do you think you would have reacted?<br />
<br />
Bewilderment that such surreality has just happened, to you, in real life? Concern that you don't know why you've just recited a vacuous and socially awkward string of words in a noticeably unnatural tone of voice -- for the second time?<br />
<br />
Mine was the typical reaction for when I don't want to be bothered with surreal happenings: Changing the subject as though nothing at all strange has happened. What white rabbit? I didn't see anything.<br />
<br />
But, of course, I had seen it, and if you are puzzled by this reaction, please understand that during tough times (when my frontal lobes are in hibernation), I am not always in the mood for social awkwardness, even the surreal type.<br />
<br />
Being a world-class hypnotist, D.H. later worked out what had happened, and phoned to tell me. I agreed, recounting my memories of the other hypnotist using a pattern interrupt and an anchor, although I don't really expect you to know what those terms mean, nor much else about hypnosis.<br />
<br />
Well, you know how your brain melts when you try to imagine it making decisions six seconds before you are aware of them? Hypnosis is a process whereby you can use that incomprehensible pre-voluntary window to enter your own alleged decisions directly into someone else's mind.<br />
<br />
This can go on until the hypnotee's imagination has expanded into a vivid, waking dream of events where ideas and sensory data can be added, removed, and changed. It is essentially a way to tap into someone else's operating assumptions system and fiddle with their maps of the world.<br />
<br />
Even more astonishingly, as long as you remember not to address that person's voluntary, critical factors, you can simply change some of their assumptions, experiences and memories.<br />
<br />
This can cause such jarring disruptions to one's sense of self as believing that one's own name is Jenny Camelhumper III, or believing that one picked the three of clubs via their own free and fair choice when in fact the hypnotist was behind the trick all along. Yes, really.<br />
<br />
Hypnosis really is an ingenious way of ruining a person's life, and some crooked "mental health professionals" have been using it in this way for decades: Just think of all the "recovered memories" of abuse by parents -- and extraterrestrials -- that never happened but were implanted by unscientific techniques.<br />
<br />
Of course, instead of ruining people's lives, you can also use hypnosis to implant the idea that they are the greatest river-dancer of all time and embarrass them greatly in front of their friends.<br />
<br />
It works like this:<br />
<br />
The faster your brain-waves go, the more you are locked in the present moment, or in other words, associated. The slower they go, the more dissociated you are, meaning that you can watch yourself do an automatic behavior without having to really think about it.<br />
<br />
As you may know, the more strongly one is dissociated, the more suggestible one is -- an important point to remember in times of dissociation.<br />
<br />
Upon waking up in the morning, your brain is set at theta waves of relaxed and zen-like awareness. At a time when you are in the single-minded pursuit of some goal, such as figuring out when and where your connecting flight departs, your brain may speed up to beta waves of laser-like focus.<br />
<br />
These fluctuations in your internal headspace, which depend on whether you're jogging, reading, or telling someone about your latest gig, can be colloquially referred to as "trances". At least, some hypnotists call them that, since most of them are not properly described as separate states of consciousness.<br />
<br />
The job of the hypnotist is to draw your focus and slow your brain waves via any of a wide variety of hypnotic inductions. These generally consist of misdirection along with overloading the person's working memory, which as you'll know can only hold about seven items of information.<br />
<br />
Quickly loading a rapid succession of items into your working memory will tend to cause a brief state of confusion, thus opening a dissociative window of opportunity. Through this window, the hypnotist can then pour information more directly into your imagination.<br />
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When these imaginative processes become sufficiently dissociated from your voluntary mind, they become, well, involuntary. In other words, automatic -- which can be quite startling as in the cockblocking carrier pigeon incident.<br />
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Let's say that you are imagining that you can see a vermillion giraffe browsing from a nearby oak tree. The next step is to imagine this process becoming effortlessly automatic, and so the heavy lifting of imagination is transferred to involuntary visualizing processes.<br />
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When this happens, a very tall and brilliantly-colored artiodactyl appears in your field of vision and your mouth opens in amazement as you look even more closely at it. It appears as though it is really there, even though you know it can't be.<br />
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In other words, you can induce a sort of waking dream, which can be directed in all sorts of neat ways. You may recall Matt Baxter's use of hypnosis to convince a man that he cast real demons out of him, although in a less obnoxious way than Bob Rivers would have.<br />
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Reinforcing a subject's anthropologically-interesting views, even if it results in the belief that you're an exorcist, is a rather Trekkian sort of idea, isn't it?<br />
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It's as though you've beamed down to help some more primitive society and yet you can't let them know that you are deceiving them with your powers (nor that Bob Rivers is doing the same thing to them) because you must follow some kind of Therapeutic Prime Directive.<br />
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Remember: Any sufficiently advanced hypnosis can seem like magic to the average person.<br />
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Not to outdo him, I may actually work up the confidence to attempt a reverse-hallucination wherein I render myself "invisible" and then get up to poltergeist-like mischief.<br />
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To the subject, this seems as though the hypnotist is not even in the room -- and so why is there a glass floating through the air, and where is that demented laughter coming from?<br />
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Can you imagine the utter DOOM of that?! >:-D Muahahaha!<br />
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Interestingly, the reason that people experience sensory disabilities from conversion disorder is because of their minds' own ability to reverse-hallucinate (or dissociate) their senses. In my case, I experienced partial numbness, which turns out to be a common hypnotic suggestion both in the worlds of therapeutic and street hypnosis.<br />
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A street hypnotist might hypnotize someone to not be able to feel his or her own arm as a clever way to steal the person's watch without them knowing. An even more clever way of using hypno-anesthesia is on people who are actually having surgery, in order to avoid giving them local and/or general anesthesia.<br />
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Some hospitals and dental clinics have hypno-anesthetists on staff, and patients apparently find the experience relaxing and pleasant. Which is, of course, exactly how the hypnotist tells them they are feeling while their skull is being drilled into.<br />
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Having developed the conversion disorder after being physically restrained and forced to arbitrarily undergo spurious general anesthesia while having my own skull drilled into (which led to serious abuse and medical neglect at a mental hospital, etc.) you may imagine that I am quite enthusiastic about using a wakeful, not to mention pleasant method of pain control.<br />
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It's rather stunning to think that hypnosis can be a 100% effective painkiller BECAUSE it is the ultimate placebo effect. There's not even any risk of side-effects unless the hypnotist were to suggest some.<br />
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Think about that -- what form of "alternative medicine" can offer a suggestion that powerful, and be honest about how it works instead of resorting to such metaphysical concepts as "energy fields"?<br />
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At the other end of the spectrum, chemically inducing a coma (also known as general anesthesia) is somewhat harmful to the brain, and shuts down the immune system. Many people do not recover from its effects very well, or at all, and some people are denied surgery on the basis that such drugs would kill them.<br />
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I'd guess this is because not many surgeons are aware of hypno-anesthesia, much less work at hospitals that actually have hypno-anesthesists on hand. (Interestingly, a psychologist I once went to said that he did this once for bowel obstruction surgery because he was the only person at the VA hospital who knew hypnosis when they discovered that the patient was allergic to the anesthesia.)<br />
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I'd also guess that there are far more homeopaths working in hospitals than hypno-anesthetists -- a disturbing thought indeed! This is especially outrageous because the homeopaths don't seem to have developed a placebo anesthetic at all, much less a very good one.<br />
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Even so, it's hard to believe that doctors bother so much with dangerous and addictive drugs since simple words and thoughts can often do most of the heavy lifting for dissociating the pain from our conscious experience.<br />
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This ability is so simple that I discovered how to do this as a child -- also a time when I was dealing with serious abuse and medical neglect. Let's just say, I had many unfortunate opportunities to use it on myself, to astonishing effect.<br />
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Since it seemed that I actually had the ability to shoot painkilling electricity from my hands -- and which has long been termed the "glove anesthesia" technique by hypnotists -- perhaps you can forgive me for believing that I had paranormal powers.<br />
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Embarrassingly for me, it turned out that wasn't the case, but for some reason it took me this long to learn how to further develop this painkilling effect without believing in newage gobbeltygook.<br />
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In fact, the last time I was stabbing my face thousands of times with a Derma-Roller, I winced at the searing pain, almost expecting blood. Then, snapping my fingers, I thought fast; "Wait a second, what pain?" Snap! "Where did that pain go?"<br />
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That was a really useful trick, as stabbing my head and torso thousands of times with 1.5 mm needles was rather worthwhile for me. The needles instantly lifted my face, as well as everything else -- my nipples weren't quite sure how to react until I got up the courage to stab them as well. :-P<br />
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I needn't have been reluctant, since none of that hurt a bit, yet it was so simple to execute! By the time TAM rolls around, I should be able to show other people a lot more than just how to dissociate pain or touch. Cool, no?<br />
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If you're still reading this, I'll assume that you are also interested in learning such hypno-abilities, unless you think that I'm just another deranged fan of yours and oh, what is with some of your listeners and their long and rambling emails, and could I really demonstrate amazing hypnotic phenomena to you?<br />
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The amount I can show you largely depends on how confident I'm feeling, and at the moment I am feeling confident enough to convey more information through text that can help you right now.<br />
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Just as there are singing and acting exercises, I can think of a simple, improv-type hypnosis exercise that helps to increase one's spontenaeity in the moment:<br />
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Simply point at various objects/creatures around the room and call them by their improper names, such as "magnetar" and "babirusa" and "pamplemousse".<br />
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It may take you a little bit to really get into the groove of this exercise, the point of which is to help shift associations and connections in your brain, as well as to be in the right headspace for doing just that. So, give it a try.<br />
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No, really, do it right now, for thirty seconds or so. I'll wait. :-)<br />
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Was that fun? Did you observe anything interesting, at least about how you view your apartment?<br />
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There are of course other ways in which hypnosis-related tools can expand your conceptual boundaries, and help to quicken and direct your personal and creative growth. One is paying close attention to how language and assumptions shape your experience of reality.<br />
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You may recall my discussion of frames from the last email, and of the importance of remembering that the map in your head is not the territory: When you learn a little more about something, especially if that something surprises you, that changes the meaning of what you already knew, or re-frames it.<br />
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Think of the last time you felt trapped in a tough situation, but then learned something that changed your perspective and helped you find the way out. (Or at least, would have if you had known at the time!) It wasn't the situation that was trapping you, so much as you had merely failed to notice that you weren't stuck after all.<br />
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Hypnotherapy -- at least any hypnotherapy worth going to -- involves identifying a person's limiting beliefs, finding a way around them, and then suggesting that way around them deeply into the person's involuntary processes.<br />
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In other words, it involves updating the person's conceptual map in such a way that it affects their behavior. First this is done intellectually and voluntarily, and then this update is written directly into the person's involuntary programming.<br />
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Unlike the suggestion that you are a pigeon, or that thick wire stitches piercing your flesh feels rather wonderful, hypno-therapeutic suggestions are meant to become permanently ingrained in one's operating assumptions system.<br />
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The reason is often because these new suggestions are made to replace old patterns, forever -- although they may need a reinforcement session or two in order to make them stick. Here's a good point to bring up the door that you could push open for twenty years until it suddenly became a rigid surface perfect for slamming into.<br />
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You were quick to consciously grasp that you would have to reach for the handle, and yet for weeks you found it difficult to remember this until it was too late. That's because the "getting out of your car" trance kept pulling you out of your voluntary awareness of the doorknob, even though you swore you would remember this time.<br />
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But of course you can remember, so why does it seem so hard to pull oneself out of one's long-ingrained habits? Think about it: This difficulty applies in spades to people who smoke too many cigarettes and then claim that they can't stop.<br />
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This is absurd on its face. Can't quit cigarettes? How is that? Who is forcing them to continue smoking these awful things? The mafia?<br />
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These people are in such an automatic trance of habit that they find it at odds to what they say they want, so they solve this cognitive dissonance by rationalizing why they can't stop.<br />
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This invariably has to do with cigarettes being an integral part of their lifestyle rather than a physical inability to stop themselves from going to the store, exchanging money for, lighting, and inhaling sticks of death.<br />
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In both cases, the only thing that makes it seem as though one can't overpower some habit is because it is so closely bound up to other involuntary habits that normally propel one along one's daily routine.<br />
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When you try to consciously stop an involuntary habit, from the top down, it can be so deeply programmed that it seems impossible to change quickly. That's because your voluntary mind is fighting against those involuntary habits.<br />
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But, when you change the programming through hypnosis, from the bottom up, you may completely lose the desire to continue smacking into the door altogether, and even reach for the knob without needing to think about it. It's as though you didn't even have to try.<br />
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For this reason, many smoking cessation clients claim that the hypnotherapy session had no connection whatsoever to their subsequent lack of desire for tobacco. Their cognitive dissonance-solving explanation is that although prior to the session they felt that they could not quit, after the session they suddenly decided to quit because they felt like it, for no particular reason.<br />
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Spooky, eh?<br />
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Once your excuses for doing something or not doing something appear silly to you, it is much easier to use hypnosis to disconnect the habits that slow you down from the habits that keep you moving towards your goals.<br />
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Certainly you can think of something in your life which you may at least dimly realize is a frame that confines you to a more limited existence. What assumptions of yours could use challenging?<br />
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There may be more than a few doorways in your life that you have never even considered going through because of any trances/frames/irrational fears that are ruling your mind without your knowledge or consent. How dare they!<br />
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The important part is that you know how to laugh at yourself as well as whatever you are struggling with. That is one thing you're good at, and one way that's sure to help you through whatever you find.<br />
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What if you could be significantly much more awesome than you currently appear to be? Most people don't live up that far to their potential, and you, unlike most people, have been working very hard to pull yourself to a position somewhere apart from them.<br />
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You are succeeding fairly well as a musician, the emcee at TAM, soon-to-be producer of your seventh album, etc. It sounds as though you've done much to get where you are, although you don't quite seem to recognize that spark which only some artists get to find out about.<br />
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This is the spark which allows them to reach into the cavernous hyperspace of their minds and assemble an opus so wonderful and out of the ordinary that it elicits both amazement and horror from the general public.<br />
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For a while, the more conservative folk consider the piece to be a sign of the apocalypse and condemn it from the rooftops. Strangely, all this hot air clouding up the airwaves will clarify to the younger generation that this work is "true art" to be preserved in a museum for all time.<br />
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The trick is to make your own definition of "true art" and then color in the outline. The younger generation will buy into it, as you probably know.<br />
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It seems to me that you're just touching the edges of how to do that, yet you don't quite know how to break all the way through. Your perfectly poignant observations and original thoughts can be further distilled and enhanced into new material, you just need some catalyst to set off the spark.<br />
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The way I see it, the mind is like an enormous processor that creates a self, which is what prevents you from realizing that you are basically a self-aware zombie that is easily controlled by your surroundings and other people.<br />
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We are all being hypnotized by the world around us -- that's why hypnosis is so deceptively simple. Those who know how the workings of our mental shortcuts that leave us open to error can effectively hack into our heads without us necessarily realizing it.<br />
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Chilling stuff, eh?<br />
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So, imagine my shock to hear that you've never thought much about how one's surroundings affect you. It is no wonder that you seem to me like a fish that may see the water around it as it's being swept along a current, but doesn't entirely see what is happening.<br />
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Maybe that's because you've never had a chance to step back and take a look at your life from certain perspectives far outside your own comfortable frames. It seems to be a rather good life -- especially with another trip to Australia coming up -- although rather unchanging in other ways, right?<br />
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According to what you said in episode 361, you have no strong sense of transition over the years, and no real change of habits, including things which bring you pleasure. So, perhaps it's time to find more ways of having fun and creating new eras of greatness in your life?<br />
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I've always noticed your marked centeredness and contentment in life, which probably has something to do with your extremely stable life conditions. It may be the norm for you, but since it is not so common for me, I don't look at it in the same way:<br />
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To me, stability tends to be a fleeting rest period during which I spend connecting data points that had seemed impossible at times when my frontal lobes were being continually trampled by stress and sleep deprivation.<br />
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In other words, it is my very glad opportunity to stop and think about how best to adapt to my environment as it begins to shift once more.<br />
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Although I have been able to bounce back from every single disaster, stronger than ever, I've found that a life dominated by emotional unpleasantness to be atrociously damaging to one's brain.<br />
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Despite this damage and abnormal development, a lot of creative inspiration has come from the horror as well, paradoxical as it may seem.<br />
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Indeed, brief chaotic periods in life can come in handy when one is trying to break oneself out of one's normal perspective and habits/frames/schemas/reality tunnels. The trick is to get the right stimuli in the right processing tracts of your mind so that it can have a positive influence, even if the chaos is not all so pleasant.<br />
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At very least, I suggest that you consider having more life-changing experiences, perhaps several times a year. You have quite a bit of character already, but there is probably much more to be dredged from that melon of yours.<br />
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As a person, your self is a creative process, through which you weave a narrative of your own life. This ability is related to your capacity to create artistically, so growing as a person can help the next song or sketch to be especially good at capturing people's imaginations.<br />
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Fortunately, you do seem to crave the sort of input that would help stir the recursive, recombinatorial bits of information that help to keep you sane, awake, spontaneous, and continuing to spin meaningful patterns.<br />
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Only you know what to feed to your brain, as I'm not there to ask you, so I'll leave you to analyze your own psyche and to decide whether or not all these small paragraphs of hypno-babble are making sense to you.<br />
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Just remember; you can't so easily navigate the vast creative space inside of your head when there are many fences crisscrossing it. And, if you do manage to broaden your mind hugely enough, you may find that your audience will broaden as well.<br />
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Even moving your furniture around your living space helps to re-map your mental space, as does re-arranging things on a smaller scale. What else can you change in your life? If you're not sure, you can probably contact the part of you that does know via some sort of Ouija board/pendulum/dowsing rod.<br />
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You probably never even thought of doing that, have you? And this despite the fact that you know that these objects are a good way to communicate with your own idiomotor responses rather than spirits, right?<br />
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As for hypnotizing yourself, it helps to start with a form of meditation. In order to dissociate, you can focus your eyes ahead on a spot on the wall, but pay attention to the room around you, even though you can't see it all.<br />
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You may know that such a trance makes it easier to find the "inner you" buried under the programming that society lays down upon us all.<br />
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That might be a fine place to start looking for the "true art" within you, whatever that means. If that's not your goal, then fine -- but as long as you're dreaming, why not dream big? There's no sense in living the thimble reality dream, is there? You only have one chance.<br />
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Tick tock!Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-41920120394040540072015-01-01T17:53:00.003-08:002015-01-01T18:08:50.453-08:00Here's to a better year, and better neural and muscular hypertrophy!If you've been reading my posts about the past few years of my life, you'll know that things have turned unbelievably bad after I thought I was in the clear. Though it's been rough without such things as internet access and a central place to put all my belongings, I'm sure I can make things better in 2015.<br />
` I haven't written about hypnosis as I said I would because I've decided to devote my computer time to edit and upload all my photos from my camera since The Amazing Meeting 2014 in July -- just to get it off my mind <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/26580665@N08/sets/?&page=2">and onto the internet for all to see</a>!<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjnNF1MwrDbYulZuTCjZnQTEtkmRYAu3uMKDiUBpPHQKhxjYG9C1ry8K2nEtkFJYWNJeeLSWBj2hRC8f6GU3DPkcDyu4HTHZOWUEzx_E7_ApPmugzCtCnSyx9zhprF2q99h0HXe2rfmzKU/s1600/my+ass+has+improved.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjnNF1MwrDbYulZuTCjZnQTEtkmRYAu3uMKDiUBpPHQKhxjYG9C1ry8K2nEtkFJYWNJeeLSWBj2hRC8f6GU3DPkcDyu4HTHZOWUEzx_E7_ApPmugzCtCnSyx9zhprF2q99h0HXe2rfmzKU/s1600/my+ass+has+improved.jpg" height="640" width="356" /></a>And speaking of photos, I would like to mention that I've been highly annoyed by the preview frame on the YouTube video of Brian Dunning's talk at TAM 2012, called <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZiWx8dnIfY">Your Brain Sucks</a> -- it's me turned around! Here's a photo that my friend Greg Dorais took of this moment:<br />
` Not only was my hair unflatteringly damaged and frizzy, but my ass was completely flat, thanks to an untreated injury from sixteen years previously. I didn't know it at the time, but my glutes were the size of a lemon and a lime, thus impeding my ability to walk properly and sit up straight.<br />
` Thanks to Dr. Hypno, who was a personal trainer for 15 years, I've been doing physical rehab for about two years now. At TAM 2014, I wanted to get an 'after' photo, wearing the same clothes, but forgot to in all the brain-draining excitement.<br />
` So, I took one shortly after returning from TAM, upon moving some of my belongings into a temporary home. Not only were my glutes almost normal-sized (they're even bigger now!), but my hair was laying flat against my head like it's supposed to!<br />
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As for Brian Dunning, he may not look so great since he's been in prison. Although he's done a heck of a lot of good to help people be aware of scams and tricks of the mind, he was recently found guilty of wire fraud from before his Skeptoid days.<br />
` While this development doesn't exactly impress me, I'll bet the True Believers<span style="font-size: xx-small;"><sup>TM</sup></span> have been having a field day. I could Google that, since I'm connected to the internet, but would rather write about how I uploaded my photos:<br />
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In order to get them up on Flickr, I had to put them into proper sequential order by checking my camera, and then edit the ones I hadn't gotten to yet -- mostly shrinking the size 50% so they aren't blurry. (Taking smaller photos results in smaller blurry pictures, so that idea is out.)<br />
` Why hadn't I done this before? Besides the insanity of my life, this has been difficult because my photo editing computer stopped working and I couldn't figure out how to quickly edit photos without Microsoft Photo Editor.<br />
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That's a really big deal because if the new way to edit takes 6x the amount of time as the old way, then one hour of photo editing becomes an unacceptable six hours. I managed to speed up my method with Microsoft Paint, although cropping photos was more time-consuming, so I mostly didn't bother.<br />
` As for adjusting the color, I either skipped it or used GIMP, so there are some photos on Flickr that are too dark. Nevertheless, I managed to complete the task within three days. Happily, although I discovered that my payment to Flickr Pro didn't go through, I now have a terabyte of space with just a free Flickr account anyway. Hooray! It even takes videos longer than 90 seconds!<br />
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Getting through the editing process should also be easier now that I've stopped taking one photo for every day that it's sunny outside. Originally, this was to show people that it doesn't rain "all the time" as is stereotypical around Seattle -- on the contrary, we have a 'dry season' every summer, and all the grass dies at least by August.<br />
` Since proving that it's sunny a lot around here is not my job, I stopped that practice in September, and have barely taken any photos since then -- at least with my camera. As for my iPhone, I cannot download my photos and videos onto my laptop, so I'm still puzzling over what to do with them besides upload them all to Facebook -- that is the next step!<br />
` Whatever the solution, I'd better not dawdle -- I lost my chance with my last iPhone when it was stolen by a crackhead! Who I have a photo of. On my new iPhone. Sigh.<br />
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While I don't have my iPhone photos from TAM up on Flickr, at least my camera ones are -- <a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/26580665@N08/sets/72157650019673791/">check it out</a>! I even got a video in the Monkey Room with Penn and Teller!<br />
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Now that I can finally stop stressing about my camera photos, it's easier to focus on writing and podcasting, which I'll probably be doing more of now that I can escape the ridiculous abuse I've been going through.<br />
` Can you imagine? The Spoony Show? For real? Me!?! A podcast host? Believe it!!<br />
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For now, I'm still letting Dr. Hypno borrow my car, as his own vehicle is still not starting for whatever mysterious reason: He recently paid a mechanic $200 to fix it, but the guy had an aneurysm before he could start, and his chances of fully recovering are not good.<br />
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I can't make this stuff up, it just keeps coming.<br />
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Whatever this flip of the calendar throws at me, I shall work hard to write and podcast amazingly, and yes, continue to gain muscle mass and reprogram the firing of my motor neurons until I can walk at least 99% correctly.<br />
` What's more, I'm even planning to go back to college to study neuroscience, because BRAAAINS! It should be much easier to do homework without crazy roommates to antagonize me daily, steal food from me, and keep me awake all night.<br />
` Now that the life of a narcissistic abuser no longer depends on me, I can finally think about what I want in life, and I've decided that I want to do my own neuroscience research on perception, consciousness, and voluntary versus involuntary impulses. I've decided it really is that fascinating.<br />
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Wish me luck!Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-33522155793101427252014-12-20T19:58:00.001-08:002014-12-20T19:58:05.729-08:00Yelp is a scam, if you didn't know. And other tales from my hectic life...I keep forgetting to mention this, but remember that <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/09/surviving-and-keeping-sane-whilst.html">commercial I said I did</a> for Dr. Hypno? It turned out really nice, but it was not ever posted online because it was done through the scam known as Yelp. I didn't even think to check it out beforehand since other hypnotists that compete with Dr. Hypno have Yelp pages with very professional-looking video ads.<br />
` Problem is, when Dr. Hypno tried it for his own practice, it was fairly worthless besides making a commercial with an independent company -- and he will still have to pay that company $500 just to use it.<br />
` Besides not putting the video up, nor good reviews he's had from clients, Yelp charged him $18 per click on his ad -- and it mysteriously got 11 clicks on the first day. He tried to contact the people in charge of Yelp, and was subsequently blocked from accessing the very page he had paid for.<br />
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In order to get out of the contract, he discovered that he would have to pay $1,000, in addition to all the other fees that got him nothing. Instead, he refused to pay for the nothing, and they withdrew $350 out of his bank account anyway.<br />
` This was unfortunate, because he was going to use $300 of that to renew his hypnosis license. Not long after this, his vehicle wouldn't start and he could no longer drive to his day job, which he had been planning on not needing in the near future.<br />
` Having lost so much money at once, he was unable to renew his license. At the same time, he was getting calls from more and better clients because he had also just updated his website. Unfortunately, since his license had expired, he has had to refer them out.<br />
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It's been months, but this has been affecting us both quite a bit -- especially since I've been loaning him the car I bought in September a few times a week, or even picking him up at work. I do this because I think it's better that he doesn't spend half his day on buses.<br />
` My vehicle at least seems to be in good shape, although sometimes it seems as though it isn't actually "mine". On Tuesday, a mechanic tried to electronically diagnose the problem with Dr. Hypno's vehicle, but even that didn't show anything.<br />
` Who knows how much more time and money he will have to put into figuring out this mystery? It's been a very greasy and expensive one thus far.<br />
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So, he's gone from seemingly very close to his goal of entirely supporting himself via his own career, with a good website and a good video ad, to not even having a vehicle to get to his day job.<br />
` And what is his day job? He is the tech support guy at a small company, and he's very good at what he does. Of course, he would much rather troubleshoot people's mental workings than their computers, and if that becomes draining, he's great at street hypnosis.<br />
` For now, he must solve his own monetary problems without the benefit of hypnotherapy income (which can be quite a bit), partly thanks to Yelp being full of fraud.<br />
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Indeed, we checked out the internet and found that many other people have the same problems -- good reviews being hidden, bad reviews being put at the top, people not being able to log into their Yelp account in order to fix anything, much less use it to blare to the world that they are being cheated, etc.<br />
` I see Yelp stickers on all manner of business windows, including my own gym. Every time I see one, I just want to tell the owners why using this service goes against their interests -- unless they want to encourage bad reviews, <a href="http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/09/why-this-tiny-italian-restaurant-gives-a-discount-for-bad-yelp-reviews/">as with the owners of this restaurant</a>.<br />
` Thankfully, Yelp is <a href="http://www.fastcompany.com/3028725/fast-feed/ftc-subpoena-revelations-send-yelps-stock-price-tumbling">already starting to get bitten</a> by their own bad business practices, and it may wind up driving them off the market. Hooray!<br />
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As for myself, I spend a lot of time over in Dr. Hypno's studio, where he's been keeping my piano so that I can play it. I also spend some amount of time in the apartment where I am paying rent on, although I don't want to be there because that's where my ex lives:<br />
` When the other six people at the house we were living at turned out to be far more dysfunctional than I imagined, I agreed to help him pay rent in a two bedroom apartment so that I could keep my two cats, and retrieve my belongings from storage after four months of living out of my luggage.<br />
` Technically, I still do live out of my luggage, but I have a room in the apartment, although it's barely useable due to all the boxes and unassembled shelving which keeps being added to it. I will have to move that stuff out if I am to actually have room to finish setting it up as an office.<br />
` When I have my car, I load up my bag, my laptop and my chair, and drive wherever I need to go in order to write. It's a really nice feeling.<br />
<br />
However, Vada gets very upset at my disappearance for entire cat-weeks, and cannot unglue herself from me when I'm around. Dilly, on the other hand, often bites me when I try to touch her and pees in my bag.<br />
` I had been using the small school bag I used in college, but last week I bought a much larger one so I can finally fit a couple of changes of clothes in -- and she peed in that one when I started packing it.<br />
` So, now I am working on being more sensitive to her, and her behavior is improving. My new bag still smells, though, despite my best efforts.<br />
<br />
It would be better if I spent more time with my cats, and maybe I will since lately my ex hasn't been a jerk to me and/or an emotional wreck. I must say, however, that the last time he bullied me, it was both sad and hilarious in a way:<br />
` I was enjoying some dinner when he came home from work and tried to make me feel ashamed of myself for the stupidest reason ever: That a hot girl at his job really likes talking about "pooping and farting" whereas this is a subject I don't find particularly interesting, especially when I'm eating.<br />
` Asserting that there was something wrong with me, he mockingly repeated these words over and over like a four year old, thus chasing me out of the room. He then laughed at me, proclaiming that my disgust at his asinine behavior shows how much more mature he is than me.<br />
<br />
Yes, really. Since then, however, he hasn't bullied me or displayed other bizarre behaviors and uncontrollable emotional outbursts. I think it has to do with his getting physical therapy for the first time since his work injury in 2012, which has sent him to the ER many times and almost killed him.<br />
` Though his insurance claim still has not been opened, the injury has become more of a problem since he ran out of his high-powered cannabis cream and then got into a fender-bender. I'm impressed by the dramatic increase in healthy behavior since he's been seeing a physical therapist.<br />
<br />
I keep thinking of the insane, dramatic events in our lives which has led up to this situation, and feel amazed that we aren't homeless or dead. Alas, neither of us quite has enough income to live independently of one another, but that may well change soon.<br />
<br />
As for Dr. Hypno, he's got plenty of income for rent, but money is otherwise tight at the moment, due to a few factors that are out of his hands, including the two I've mentioned.<br />
` If he had realized that Yelp was this dodgy, or at least if they had not chosen him to screw over, he could easily be raking in over a thousand dollars a week as a hypnotherapist.<br />
<br />
And as for all three of us goes, I've been thinking a lot about how none of us have much of a support network -- although I'm grateful to be the one with a family member who is both alive and cares about me. Also, most of my friends are still alive, and some of them live fairly close.<br />
` I think it's safe to say that if any of us had a larger support network, all of us would be doing better because we would be able to support one another more effectively.<br />
<br />
One more thing -- why isn't this a post about hypnosis? Well, there's so much other content I can get up here a lot faster. And why is it taking so long -- besides the fact that I still don't have daily internet access far beyond the Facebook app on my iPhone?<br />
` You see, my views on hypnosis change every time I learn new information on the subject. It's sort of a similar situation with my podcast -- I keep changing my views and so don't want to publish what I have put together without correcting it.<br />
<br />
Nevertheless, I'm typing out emails and blog posts on a word processor and will add formatting to this when I put it on my blog in four days (which is when I plan on having internet access). My hypnosis post-in-progress is also saved as a Blogger draft, and I will pull it up then.<br />
<br />
Anyway, I'm looking forward to writing about hypnosis, actually practicing it myself, as well as otherwise improving my life. For now, just remember -- Yelp is unreliable: Not only do they rip off their clients, but they mess with customer reviews as well!Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-39302914922628993322014-12-10T10:27:00.001-08:002016-02-18T01:38:37.047-08:00Psychedelics ≠ Intoxicants: A cultural commentaryI said I wouldn't do this again, but a certain skeptical entertainer, which I have finally revealed as George Hrab, has inspired me to write about psychedelics once more -- <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/12/my-life-and-blog-content-whats-going-on.html">here's the backstory, if you are interested/concerned for my mental health</a>.<br />
` The crux of it is, I feel an urge to speak up when people espouse false information or condescending attitudes about things I have an understanding and appreciation of -- especially when the point of their podcast is to help dispel myths and propaganda, and otherwise have a geeky good time.<br />
<br />
After answering a listener question about the psychedelic brew ayahuasca in <a href="http://geologicpodcast.com/the-geologic-podcast-episode-385">Episode 385</a>, I was tempted to write Geo another email, but instead thought it would be better as a more generalized piece on my blog.<br />
` Granted, if I had my own podcast up and running, I would already have a much more interesting public platform at which to direct people when they make dismissive or misinformed comments about topics that I think are important. That'll be the next step for me. For now, I'll do what I can here.<br />
<br />
I also want to mention that I have not had much Internet access while writing this text file, so it isn't full of links to sources, which I would prefer it to be -- even moreso than my previous four articles on the subject.<br />
` If you think I'm wrong about something, go ahead and check it for yourself -- it's the skeptical way, right? Besides, I loves me some comments, so fire away if you think I'm wrong, or have any other thoughts!<br />
` Also, I would like to point out that my use of the pronoun 'you', as opposed to 'one' is meant to help connect what I'm writing with 'your imagination'. Although I've included descriptions of psychedelic states before, this is meant to be the most 'vivid', if that makes sense.<br />
<br />
So, here's the text file from my laptop, cutted and pasteded for your enjoyment:<br />
<br />
Why do some intelligent, critical thinking-type people still dismiss psychedelic drugs as not important to neuroscience, psychotherapy, history, art, religion, and/or even as an experience to be had?<br />
` It's abundantly clear (<a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-ultimate-skeptics-head-trip-part-1.html">as I hope I've shown already</a>) that they are, but why is it that some skeptical types are keenly interested in this stuff, while others think very lowly of it?<br />
<br />
It's not just because psychedelics are classified as a Schedule I drug, it's because of the myths about them that are meant to justify their illegality. What's the worst myth of them all? That they're somehow more damaging than the most damaging drug in the world -- alcohol. After all, alcohol is legal, so how could it be worse than LSD? Or marijuana, for that matter...<br />
` Because everyone knows that alcohol is a powerful inebriant, they might assume that psychedelics will just make you lose awareness/control of yourself in a similar way. It is the familiarity, legality and social acceptance of alcohol which actually works against the public understanding of psychedelics.<br />
<br />
This realization came sharply into focus while listening to Geo's podcast when he called ayahuasca and mushrooms "intoxicants", a word which implies toxicity and a loss of control of one's faculties or behavior. He has said in the past that he doesn't want to experience intoxication and has an "irrational sense" of almost-superiority because of this.<br />
` Apparently, this attitude is very ingrained in his identity, as is his grouping of various "drugs" together in the category of "intoxicants". Some people, though they might use alcohol or marijuana, may say that they aren't the "type of person" to take "hard drugs" like "heroin or LSD", as though those are somehow equivalent.<br />
` Laughably misguided as this is, some of these people are fairly rigid in this part of their identity, and I've seen a few react quite emotionally upon hearing facts to the contrary. It is then ironic that a good dose of LSD is known to reveal the core awareness that lies beneath such cognitive dissonance -- but I'm getting ahead of myself.<br />
<br />
Although Geo has expressed some strong opinions about "drugs" based on his impressions of them, he has said that he knows very little about them, and that he's not the one to ask about this subject. I've met quite a few people who fit this description, so perhaps it shouldn't be surprising to them to learn that psychedelics are a bit more complicated than mere "intoxicants":<br />
<br />
Their primary effect is quite different from alcohol, almost the opposite, in fact -- although still very different from the primary effects of the "intoxicants" known as caffeine and nicotine. No, it's not the hallucinations which make psychedelics unique:<br />
<br />
It's important to note that there are three main classes of hallucinogens: Deliriants, dissociatives, and psychedelics. The first two tend to cause more confusion and delusions of unreality, but the third lends itself more to reflection and meditation:<br />
` The word 'psychedelic' means 'mind expanding' or 'mind manifesting', and those who study and/or have experienced these effects do not use this term in an ironic fashion.<br />
<br />
Psychedelics like ayahuasca, psilocybin mushrooms, LSD and mescaline are known to increase self-awareness to such a shocking degree that they can be used to hurl people out of their addictions and traumas.<br />
` It is common for people to change their personalities based on what they learn about themselves in the space of a few hours' trip. (Especially when in the proper set and setting.)<br />
<br />
So far, these drugs are not known to cause brain damage, despite their incredibly strong effects: Unlike stimulants, opiates, and the rest, which bring about familiar states of consciousness, psychedelics <i>change the quality of consciousness itself.</i><br />
<br />
Hence, the impossibility of describing this to people who can't imagine what a "different" quality of consciousness would be like. Different in what way?<br />
<br />
Far from causing extreme incoherence or speediness, the overall effect (under proper conditions) is generally an increase in sobriety, lucidity, sensory awareness, self-awareness, and being 'present' in the moment.<br />
` Whereas caffeine gives one a narrowness of focus and possibly the jitters, psychedelics are very 'clean'. They allow one's very consciousness to perceive much more than it normally can, literally broadening what is possible to experience.<br />
` According to actual psychedelics researchers and experienced trippers alike, you start to notice things you never noticed before, and can feel the "space" in your mind expand as though it was a physical space:<br />
<br />
At a "Level 2" or so, it expands to the point of opening up into a sort of 'virtual reality headspace' that you cannot normally access. It actually feels like a parallel physical space that surrounds you, yet is clearly separate from your perception of the actual world.<br />
` Only when the fetters are lifted can you be made aware that they were even there, and you realize that you have lived your entire life up to that point being held firmly in place, with your face up against a tiny window of perception.<br />
<br />
Now that you are free to turn your head (or, change perspectives in your head) for the first time in your life, you are astonished to find that surrounding you is an entire universe that has been there all along but that you have never even suspected was there. How does it all fit into your brain?<br />
` Closing your eyes to "look around" in this space, you may blanch at ornate fractal landscapes filling your mind's eye to infinity in all directions at once. You can even have an 'inner body' which may be distorted with an indeterminate number of appendages that you can both feel and move independently of your actual body.<br />
<br />
It's as though you can experience two different 'dimensions' existing in the same space, and can choose which one to give your attention: The world of sensory perception of what's around you (which may be distorted/augmented), or the one in which you appear to be some kind of alien, melding with surreal landscapes that you can see in multiple directions at once.<br />
` As I mentioned in my last post, as you get higher, the more this inner reality takes hold, and in some cases it can actually obscure sensory data. Still, this does not necessarily mean that the person experiencing this suddenly believes that the inner world is "really happening".<br />
<br />
Geo asked how much stranger this would be than "a dream or a thought where you can rid yourself of outer influence". I'm not sure what he meant by "outer influence", but this is not exactly an isolation tank trip, or a lucid dream.<br />
` This is exploring another 'reality' in your head, and manipulating what you find therein, to your advantage. This is a tool kit:<br />
<a name='more'></a><br />
In this unexplored vastness, you realize that you aren't 'you' anymore -- you can see your name, occupation, nationality, relationships, and other aspects that you've been conditioned to believe are part of your identity, separately from what 'you' are. They are abstractions that do not define 'you' and your actions.<br />
` You can see that you are just an animal, whose thoughts transcend language, and is free of culture, government, and other "games" around which people organize their lives. You can see that these games are a delusion that drive people, the same as religious folk devoting their lives to deities.<br />
<br />
Suddenly, your everyday life seems so small and far below you. Such drastic freedom can be described as "atheist heaven" -- an otherworldly "afterlife" that is actually possible to visit! -- although it can also be quite a rude awakening, without necessarily turning hellish:<br />
` In this state, you are "unplugged" from "the Matrix", looking at your everyday existence and behavior without the cognitive dissonance that rationalizes your more questionable actions.<br />
<br />
And what the hell have you been doing down there, anyway? With increased self-awareness you may be shocked to closely examine flaws in your own life strategies, and find yourself reconsidering what is most important to you.<br />
` George Carlin, who credited LSD with catalyzing the rise in his creativity and career, called it a "value changing" drug. Actual research, some of which I have previously blogged about, shows this is an apt description.<br />
<br />
As my blog audience, what do you think so far? This is as an accurate a description as I can manage, so to speak. If you're just learning this for the first time, it's probably not at all what you expected.<br />
<br />
Now, for those of you who have the freedom to view the world expanded so far beyond one language, I'd bet you would have something to say to people who think they are somehow fortunate for having learned only one language, such as my brother:<br />
` He told me that if you want to appreciate *anything* in another language, there is no qualitative difference between understanding it yourself versus having someone else translate it for you. He also said that children, who can learn languages most easily, shouldn't be "forced" to grow up with more than one language.<br />
<br />
If he'd had actual experience to the contrary, he would know how incredibly ignorant that sounds.<br />
<br />
It's kind of like deaf people who hope that their own children are born totally deaf and hate it when other people give hearing prosthetics to their children, partly because they don't want those kids to join the hearing culture. If they only knew what it was like to hear, their impairment wouldn't be a part of their identity and they would realize how f***ing crazy that is.<br />
<br />
It is a similar case with psychedelics: In research settings, most people consider their experience to be one of the most intense, significant, and meaningful events in their lives, commonly declaring it to be the most significant.<br />
` So, how do you think they feel when they are explaining how big a deal this is to another person, and that person says something like, "That was just your experience" or "So? It's just a hallucination! Who cares?"<br />
` This type of response comes from the desire to validate one's identity as "sane and sober", in which so many are wrapped up. Besides, if such people admitted that they were wrong, they would have to take back everything they had said in the past (including on their own podcast), and even<i> thinking</i> about that can be daunting.<br />
<br />
On the other hand, if someone had an amazing psychedelic experience and tells someone else, who had the same kind of experience, they would simply agree, end of story. Unfortunately, just as it's impossible to describe sound to a deaf person, it is impossible to describe the effects of psychedelics to someone who has never sensed them.<br />
` That is not to say that 'translating down' from the psychedelic sphere isn't helpful, and as I pore through my notes, it gets even more interesting:<br />
<br />
With your conscious awareness having broken loose from your self-concept, it can travel around the enormous expanse as though it were space itself. Far from drifting aimlessly, it is possible to steer just by focusing on what you want.<br />
` In psychedelic studies, most people find this freedom to be exhilarating, although in higher doses, first-timers can feel extremely intimidated by the sheer size of this "egoless" space, and can become overwhelmed by the prospect of navigating it. It's described as like being in the open ocean in a rowboat and worrying about losing track of the shore.<br />
<br />
You may know intellectually that we are all "robots", mostly running on automatic programming, and in this space you can "see" those involuntary thoughts and actions: In other words, the unconscious becomes conscious.<br />
` With a most vivid awareness, you can glimpse something of how your 'robot parts' work, and even change your habits based on this astounding awareness.<br />
<br />
Gliding through those mental processes that are normally hidden from you, you can travel to unfamiliar sectors and witness, nay, become the "impossible". Thankfully, these don't occur all at once, but rather one or a few at a time, as your awareness moves from one region of mental workings to another.<br />
<br />
As you are reading this, you can experience a certain amount of awareness of yourself interpreting these words on the screen. Now, try to imagine being aware of being aware of yourself being aware of yourself reading this. It's as though you have a more-than-usual amount of 'mirrors' to add layers of self-reflection.<br />
<br />
At times, you can even be aware of the fact that you don't consciously decide to perform actions until after the impulse has started, or so it seems:<br />
` You can feel the impulse boiling to the top before you felt as though you made a decision. You can't even imagine this happening, right? Yet, it is possible to experience -- a bit disconcerting, although not necessarily unpleasant.<br />
<br />
From a different vantage point, you can watch your mind assign meaning to your life's experiences and create the narrative that you call your "self". You realize that your self is just a story, and that it's mostly bullsh** even though it's based on real events.<br />
` Looking at your self while not "inside" of it, and with your cultural influences thrown off, you can see more of your own assumptions and motives with more honesty and objectivity. You can judge yourself as though you were another person entirely.<br />
<br />
Although these drugs decrease the overall activity in your 'reality filters', such as your 'social matrix' constructs, they increase connectivity between brain regions that aren't normally synchronized, thus spurring creativity and insight that would otherwise be neurologically impossible.<br />
` Yes, you are "using the stuff you have inside of you", as Geo has said, yet you are also using mental tools that you cannot otherwise access or even imagine, which is the entire point of using these drugs.<br />
<br />
That is why so many people claim that even one such experience has changed them forever.<br />
<br />
Indeed, psychedelics can apparently re-wire the brain permanently, often making the person more open to new experience and seeking novelty. Everything is different now that they have had a taste of what it's like outside the Matrix. They will never see things the same way again.<br />
<br />
For the average person to say that these experiences are "for weirdos" or even just "for other people" is to miss the fact that it is only cultural attitudes and beliefs which push this view, not science, and not the reports of subjects in these studies (or outside of them for that matter).<br />
<br />
As for Geo, he did not understand why anyone would drink ayahuasca if they knew they were going to vomit. Granted, most psychedelics don't have much of a nausea factor, but does it seem clear now that vomiting would be a trifle compared with many hours of such effects as I have been describing?<br />
<br />
I could ask him: Why did you learn to play the guitar if you knew how much it would hurt your fingers? Do you think it was a worthwhile personal development? What do you get from it nowadays?<br />
<br />
It is no mystery why so many people have not seen the value in psychedelics -- they have never been changed by them. In most cases, they have also not been changed by a so-called 'spiritual awakening', either.<br />
<br />
Recently I have read Sam Harris' book "Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion", in which he notes that psychedelics are a surefire way of waking up profoundly, with a relatively clear head and an extremely expanded perception.<br />
` In the first few pages he describes how he never suspected what was under the surface of the everyday mind, nor that there is such a thing as a "spiritual" awakening, until he took the semi-psychedelic entactogen, MDMA.<br />
<br />
He also notes that most scientists and philosophers have no inkling of what a 'spiritual' or 'transcendent' experience is, and so may dismiss it as something they are familiar with, such as a profound feeling of love or awe.<br />
` It is not -- yet there is no way to express the truth of this in any language: You cannot tell anyone what the color "red" looks like if they have never seen it.<br />
` Much like hearing or vision, there is no reference outside of personal experience to clue anyone in on this extraordinary reality. Yet, it is not wishful thinking, even if supernatural interpretations of it may be.<br />
<br />
Though with much practice you can learn to have 'spiritual' experiences without psychedelics, you cannot really have psychedelic experiences without psychedelics.<br />
<br />
On his podcast, Geo joked/implied that the natives of South America must take ayahuasca because they don't have television to watch out in the jungle. As I hope it has become clear, this is not some form of idle amusement.<br />
<br />
Powerful psychedelic journeys are considered, by those who have had them (including Sam Harris), to be an essential part of the human experience and not to be dismissed or taken lightly. They can even be so overwhelmingly intense as to be described as like an orgasm that lasts for hours, although not necessarily of a sexual nature.<br />
` This is important to remember -- the only people who are capable of disagreeing with this opinion are people who have not had these experiences. Once you have, you exit your "normal" confined and filtered reality and understand that it really is the "red pill".<br />
<br />
On the other end of the spectrum, there are people who say they feel fortunate for not knowing what it's like to take psychedelics, because to them it's only a matter of drinking the electric Kool Aid and becoming a "believer".<br />
<br />
Of people who had done mushrooms, Geo mocked their trying to tell
him that this experience is beyond what is normally possible. Yet, from a position of complete ignorance,
he assured his audience that this experience can't really be anywhere as bizarre as
what they say it is.<br />
<br />
So, these people who have done
psychedelics, well, they don't know what psychedelics are really like. But, the
guy who postures about how he's above taking them just happens to <i>magically know</i> what they're like better than <i>everyone who has</i>.<br />
` Which is a perfect illustration of the principle that if you've made up your mind that this is so, you will never know that you
are wrong, unless someone slips some LSD into your Diet Coke... <br />
<br />
By and large, I'd say these people are motivated by fear and stigma, and maybe because so many 'interesting' characters tend to gravitate toward these drugs. It is popular to look down upon those who value taking psychedelics, but why?<br />
<br />
To be sure, many researchers are drawn to these drugs, and not only for their therapeutic qualities. Their unique effects are also prized for helping to shed light on how consciousness itself works, as well as perception and creativity.<br />
<br />
Although psychedelics are greatly valued by many of those who study the mind and brain, they have been downplayed and denounced in a lot of popular culture. So, you may ask, why is that? I have already cobbled together <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-ultimate-skeptics-head-trip-part-4.html">an entire blog post concerning this</a>, but in short:<br />
` It is mainly because Timothy Leary, Ken Kesey, and others worked so hard to spread the influence of psychedelics -- particularly LSD and psilocybin -- as "deconditioning agents" against authority figures.<br />
<br />
One thing that psychedelics teach you, if you pay attention to their effects, is that authority is just an illusion, and that you're capable of questioning it. Indeed, those government folks learned that from their own psychedelic experiments.<br />
` Once the games of life are visible, it is easy to "turn on" the mind to understanding the corruption, manipulation and overall nonexistence of the power structure: The president and the pope have the same amount of authority -- none.<br />
` Indeed, all those 1960's hippie protests and social revolutions were fueled and catalyzed by psychedelics. Though these people were called "unpatriotic" for being against the Viet Nam war, they had learned that countries are just an illusion -- that isn't hard to see when your mind has "moved outside of" the concept of countries.<br />
<br />
Nixon and company had a problem with their authority and intentions being in question, and so banned the drugs -- thus keeping them away from researchers -- and spread all kinds of propaganda in order to justify doing so.<br />
<br />
In a short amount of time, psychedelics went from being the drugs of intellectuals, scientists, engineers, artists, psychologists, etc, to drugs that cause chromosomal damage, make people go crazy, and other non-science-based claims.<br />
` Popular depictions of their effects were akin to the nonsense found in "<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness">Reefer Madness</a>" -- or "<a href="http://expelledexposed.drupalgardens.com/">Expelled</a>", for that matter. For example, the infamous "Blue Boy" episode of Dragnet was part of the smear campaign, thanks to FBI "consultants".<br />
<br />
I have long noticed a similar mass-cultural attitude in the U.S. about the sizeable and most innervated section of male genital skin. (And so <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/12/psychedelics-intoxicants-cultural.html">I wrote a really cool article about it</a>, making my blog go viral!) Many times I have heard the unscientific notions that it impairs sexual sensation, is difficult to retract, smells horrible, etc. and so, like a tumor, it must be removed upon sight.<br />
` The American circumcision practice developed out of the religious/ "medical" sexual suppression/ genital mutilation craze of the late 1800s. The myths have changed since then, but this tradition continues to cause senseless harm, even in a few places outside of the U.S. where it has also been "medicalized".<br />
` (Now it's mostly an American and Muslim tradition, thus giving the Europeans yet another reason to think that Americans are crazy. I agree.)<br />
<br />
Although more Americans are realizing how damaging (and traumatic) this ritual is, I have met men who have told me how glad they are not to know the horrors of what they imagine having a foreskin would be like. (Again, my brother comes to mind.)<br />
` Some of them have even said that men who value their unabridged anatomy are "sick" and in denial of the harm it causes them. This is indeed the damage that mass cultural prejudice can have against a powerful erogenous zone, which people not so indoctrinated generally find quite desirable.<br />
<br />
Like most people in the world, if those people had been free to have personal experience and were not raised to believe that this normal piece of anatomy is such an ungodly horrible mistake of nature, such a prejudice would never occur to them.<br />
` It's far from a perfect analogy, although there are some parallels with attitudes about psychedelics.<br />
<br />
Just as it can be argued that having all your own body parts is a 'birthright', the psychedelics community consider our ability to access these parts of our own minds to be the same thing. It can be argued that taking away the drugs that allow us to access our own minds in this way is destructive to individuals and communities at large.<br />
<br />
These folks understand the universal significance of these drugs, and why various cultures have been influenced by them for tens of thousands of years, as evidenced by psychedelic mushrooms and plants carved in temples, caves, and even churches.<br />
` The expanded 'interactive imagination space', super-human insight and feeling of connection to all things seems to have just as much impact on a nonbeliever as it does someone from a South American jungle tribe, or from ancient Egypt. It doesn't matter who you are or what you know about the world -- these effects are astonishing in their own right.<br />
` This stands in stark contrast to a culture in which mind-numbing alcohol is the only legal and generally-accepted "mind altering" substance. Indeed, I used to be one of those people who thought that psychedelics were way worse than alcohol.<br />
<br />
It was not until shortly after TAM 2012, when I began reading about the science of psychedelics, that I realized this is just another cultural myth of our time. I decided that the various misconceptions about them must be investigated and dispelled, along with bigfoot and the Shroud of Turin.<br />
<br />
What was most surprising to me is that psychedelics can be used to stop drug addiction: With mind-expanding drugs, your troubles will not drown, but rather chase you across paisley geometric landscapes until you deal with them.<br />
` In fact, there is a psychedelic called ibogaine which outright prevents opiate withdrawal symptoms from occurring. In places where it is legal, it is used in stopping heroin addiction, with very high success rates.<br />
` Although alcohol abuse is overwhelmingly common among some Native American groups, the ones that do mescaline cactus ceremonies do not generally drink or do any other drugs. They don't bother with the "hiding from your problems" game, as addicts do.<br />
<br />
The same is true of the ayahuasca churches in Peru and Brazil, in which new church members either quit other drugs or do not start taking them in the first place. In meditative or musical rituals, they are free to see visions, experience synesthesia, and to frankly examine their own behavior from the outside, which can be as painful as it is instructive.<br />
` The psychedelic researcher Charles Grob found that these people are more mentally healthy than those who don't do ayahuasca. They are more open to experience and tend to be more calm, empathetic and focused. He has even found a possible chemical mechanism for ayahuasca's action against feelings of depression.<br />
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Another thing Geo said was that the safety of ayahuasca is "questionable because it really screws with your brain." Which... isn't an argument. Interestingly, the active ingredient is DMT, which is a neurotransmitter already found in your brain, and does not seem to be harmful even in such massive doses.<br />
` Granted, there is an MAO-inhibitor in ayahuasca to make the DMT orally active, which can actually be dangerous in high enough doses. However, LSD, psilocybin and smoked/injected DMT are bizarrely non-toxic, and don't generally cause vomiting.<br />
` The biggest danger is, of course, having a bad trip, which can generally be avoided or at least mitigated. Among the large amounts of research and anecdotes I am familiar with, it's an unlikely occurrence under controlled conditions.<br />
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Geo advised the person who wrote in to stay sober and witness his friend's ayahuasca experience before making up his mind if he wants to try it himself. Right, because you will understand having sex much better just by watching other people do it.<br />
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And that is the end of my rambling rant, which, I agree, could use further editing. Before I go, I shall say that psychedelics aren't all fun and game-changing -- it depends on how they are used. And even though you can see through the game, that doesn't mean that you can necessarily escape it.<br />
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As Hunter S Thompson wrote in "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas":<br />
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“We are all wired into a survival trip now. No more of the speed that fueled that 60's. That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling "consciousness expansion" without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him seriously... All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped create... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old-mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody... or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.”</blockquote>
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It seems that, now that psychedelics are making a comeback in this culture, and scientists are even allowed to study them under very limited conditions, we may have a repeat of the 1960's. How will it be different this time around? Will we find a place for them in our culture? Only time will tell.</div>
Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-33321795336897547172014-12-07T15:07:00.001-08:002014-12-10T10:31:02.323-08:00My life and blog content... what's going on here?Have the machine elves abducted me and made me their slave? Not exactly...<br />
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Since TAM 2014, I have been essentially living out of a suitcase, with little in the way of internet access outside of my phone. In September, I outright bought a similar car to my previous one, and in November I got my belongings out of storage and into an office -- only to find that they were not all there.<br />
` Still, life is slowly improving, as I've actually been paid for some of my writing, and I look forward to being paid for more. Even both of my cats have a place to live! I, still, do not have my own place, although I no longer live with six messed-up roommates, and keep well away from my abusive ex as much as I can.<br />
<br />
Although there are many varied posts in 'draft' form on this blog, I've mostly been publishing ones about psychedelics for a while, for various reasons:<br />
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Shortly after TAM 2012, I started learning how the mind and brain can be warped with hypnosis and psychedelics, and also their relationship to woo and religion. Fascinating stuff.<br />
` I also learned how people in this culture have been purposely brainwashed by the government to dismiss psychedelics, as well as marijuana, in spite of scientific findings.<br />
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It's like a skeptical smorgasboard!<br />
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At TAM 2013, I actually talked about writing about psychedelics with Michael Shermer, who said it would be a great topic for me to write about for Skeptic Magazine. Although other articles about psychedelics and 'the war on drugs' have appeared in Skeptic, none of them have been by me.<br />
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That's mostly because my life was becoming more and more of a living hell as the person I was living with and taking care of became more paranoid, narcissistic, gaslighting, frightening -- well, he almost killed me with his utter neediness and crazy-making.<br />
` I'm almost ashamed to admit, but he convinced me into thinking that my desire to write meant that there was something wrong with me, and that I had some kind of 'glued to the screen' addiction because of it.<br />
` (If that is so, then Dr. Karl has such an addiction far worse than I, and he told me this at TAM 2014!)<br />
<br />
I've written about my situation a few times on my blog during this time, just to tell people that I'm still interested in writing about intellectually-challenging topics, but was under the sleep deprived spell of a dying control freak who was being denied the healthcare that he desperately needed.<br />
` Instead, it was my job to take care of him and drive him to the ER a lot, and take the blame for problems of his that I did not cause. And if I didn't like it, then I was just 'trying to kill him', and no, don't tell anyone else because they don't know the truth, blah blah blah...<br />
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I knew it was wrong to stay, especially since it kept tearing away all the progress I was making in breaking out of three decades of PTSD-causing narcissistic and institutional abuse, torture, etc., but I didn't want to let him die.<br />
` Since it's resulted in permanent nerve damage in my face, and another couple of years of my life wasted, I actually regret not just walking out the door and letting him die of starvation. Or at least dumping him at a hospital before leaving and telling them that he will die if they kick him out.<br />
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During the same time span since 2012, I was listening to back-episodes of the Geologic Podcast, which I found to be inspirational to my own podcast -- yes, it is possible to attract an audience with entertainment, music, shlock and silliness! I like. It was a welcome distraction of sanity while I was trying to keep my brain functioning at least slightly.<br />
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In many of these episodes, I was shocked at the condescending nature of Geo's comments about all 'drugs', including psychedelics. He even essentially said that LSD made the Beatles' Sargent Pepper album, and other psychedelically inspired works, worse than they could have been.<br />
` This is someone who should know better than to spread propaganda -- on his skeptical podcast!! -- although I didn't think it was worth telling him unless I knew just what to say.<br />
<br />
Starting about a year ago, during a particularly rough time, I felt the need to write on my blog, but didn't have the brainpower or internet power to write blog posts that required frontal lobes to understand. So, I wrote emails to people, including Geo, <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/08/where-to-start.html">which I've described a while back</a>.<br />
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It wasn't until last spring and summer that for whatever reason I became so offended by Geo's misguided and inaccurate remarks that I sought to educate him on the subject. After all, he is misinforming his audience.<br />
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So, I wrote him some emails about psychedelics. It doesn't seem as though he's read them, but I thought they were good enough to fix up and post on my blog, and that's what became Parts 1-3 of The Ultimate Skeptic's Head trip (<a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-ultimate-skeptics-head-trip-part-1.html">starting here</a>).<br />
` Based on the responses I've gotten, it's apparently possible for some skeptics to appreciate what I've written and become interested in the subject themselves. It was only then that I revealed who the emails were to.<br />
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I've also added a <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-ultimate-skeptics-head-trip-part-4.html">Part 4</a>, which was a conglomeration of material from various sources that all sort of fit into the same blog post -- although it was a tight squeeze. I figured that was enough psychedelic material for now, but have since changed my mind:<br />
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Last month, Geo made some dismissive comments about ayahuasca on his show, which inspired me to finally write that article I've been meaning to write for Skeptic Magazine. I think I understand my angle now.<br />
<br />
Without my own internet access, this is difficult, but in order to help myself break out of the rut I'm in, I set out to develop my inspiration by writing him another email. Then I realized that this was probably a mistake, so I figured it would be better-received if I posted it straight to my blog.<br />
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That will be my next post -- <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/12/psychedelics-intoxicants-cultural.html">which you can now read here</a>. And the one after that will, mercifully, be on another topic -- this time, the facts and fallacies of hypnosis.Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-81797782505328025682014-11-12T17:38:00.001-08:002015-03-11T22:14:42.407-07:00The Ultimate Skeptic's head Trip (Part 4)Here is the last of this particular head trip, although more will be forthcoming on this blog and elsewhere. In Parts 1-3, I've highlighted what psychedelics reveal about the brain and mind and a bit of their role in history, religion, art and science.<br />
` It's quite fascinating stuff, <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-ultimate-skeptics-head-trip-part-1.html">starting here</a> -- you ought to know it before pushing ahead into the last and longest-winded post of them all.<br />
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This time, we'll be merrily tripping into slightly different territory -- more on what psychedelics reveal about the self, and how quickly that self can change. I will also share my thoughts on how this relates to why these drugs are banned in much of the world.<br />
` In Parts 1-3, I have also included descriptions of psychedelic experiences from people such as Jennifer Ouellette, Sam Harris, and many others (some anonymous).<br />
` This time, I am employing descriptions from psychologist Timothy Leary, the neuroscientist Robin Carhart-Harris, the ethnobotanist Terrence McKenna -- and more -- for specific reasons which will become clear as we travel down the rabbit hole to the inner wonderland that is usually invisible.<br />
<br />
I will discuss two main aspects of psychedelic trips -- their uniqueness and their utility. Although, for those who have expressed curiosity as to what they are like after reading the first three parts, I will start with a visual tour of the various depths of psychedelic experience that can be achieved.<br />
` Here's a short video on the agreed-upon intensity levels of psychedelic experiences, which are classified as 1 through 5. If you'd rather skip it, or can't play it, I've summarized the levels below:<br />
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<span style="color: #783f04;"><b>* Level 1</b> -- Clear-headed, although at the same time "high" as with marijuana; extremely dilated pupils and apparent visual enhancement; music seems to have a spatial quality.</span><br />
<span style="color: #274e13;"><b>* Level 2</b> -- Open eye visuals where objects appear to move and breathe; closed eye visuals of two dimensional patterns; noticeably elevated levels of abstract thought.</span><br />
<span style="color: #0c343d;"><b>* Level 3</b> -- Open eye visuals of patterns, etc. on surfaces; complex, three-dimensional closed eye visuals; increased suggestibility; synesthesia, such as seeing and feeling sounds as colorful shapes and patterns.</span><span style="color: #0c343d;"> Though there seems to be much more clarity and connection with one's mind, the connection with motor control becomes a bit 'drunken' at this point.</span><br />
<span style="color: #20124d;"><b>* Level 4</b> -- Strong hallucinations that put WETA Workshop to shame; Closed-eye visuals of extremely complex moving patterns that seem to defy geometry; Destruction/division of the ego; Senses blend and sensory input becomes more difficult to process; Seemingly ESP-like phenomena.</span><br />
<span style="color: #4c1130;"><b>* Level 5</b> -- Complete disconnection with vision and body; feeling as though reality is a computer simulation; immersion in an alternate kaleidoscopic dimension; obtaining what seems to be universal knowledge; encountering super-intelligent entities or an all-knowing presence.</span><br />
<span style="color: #4c1130;">` Despite being physically incapacitated by the 'virtual reality' at this level, one can still retain one's ability to think about what is happening to them in a fairly rational manner. (i.e. "Where has this chemical substance taken me now!?" or as Terrence McKenna has said, "Good grief, I've really done it this time!")</span><br />
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This may be a useful way of categorizing these experiences, although by no means can it communicate the reality, value, or utility of the subjective and neurological effects. Flashy graphics can clue people in on some of the visuals, but these cannot portray the most transformative aspects.<br />
` So far in this series, I've included plenty about how classic psychedelics, such as LSD and psilocybin, can be used to bring about very definite ego dissolution, and help people to see how their brains construct their own personal narrative and perception of everyday reality.<br />
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The self, we know, is a process, which one's awareness can observe. From the "outside", it is possible to witness the 'selfing' occurring in your own brain. For those who are looking for a description of what this is like, alas, words can only get one so far into terra incognita:<br />
` As I have also pointed out, the 'haves' consider a trip (especially above a level 1) outright impossible to convey to the 'have-nots': Those who are about to open the doors of perception for the first time have no idea where the doors are located, much less what can be perceived through them.<br />
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If you know more than one language, you will have had the pleasure of explaining the meaning of some phrases and words which cannot be translated directly. You will also have found that the exact sense of the meaning can still be difficult even when explaining translations.<br />
` A much more extreme example of untranslateability is sometimes known in the psychedelic community as "translating down" experiences from the expanded mind into everyday language.<br />
` These go so far beyond language itself that they are not possible to describe with ordinary terminology, or even art. As they say, you'd have to be there to understand it.<br />
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Various psychedelic phenomena are so alien that even if more precise language was developed to describe them, a 'have-not' would still be unable to grasp the meaning of the new words. Think of the futility in describing vision to someone who doesn't even know what seeing is like:<br />
` You can use words such as 'yellow' or 'shaded', but they will not understand what it really 'looks like'. And what happens if you try to explain those concepts with other words? There's no real substitute, is there?<br />
<br />
It is a psychedelic truism that when one is so far into inner space, looking back onto the tight funnel of ordinary consciousness, it is apparent that language is a blunt instrument, unable to express the richness of such inner life.<br />
` From here, the dimness and distortions of language can seem like a cage, or to have more potential at spinning delusional narratives than clarity. Those who study language, influence, rhetoric and manipulation, who can see how easily our sense of reality is directed by linguistic constructs, may well agree here.<br />
<br />
Despite the impossibility factor, psychedelic researchers do their darnedest to put these experiences into everyday language. Robin Carhart-Harris, the first scientist to be legally permitted to study psychedelics since the widespread ban, is one among a growing handful today.<br />
` He has tried describing psychedelic experiences in another video, which I shall save for the bottom of the page. For now, I shall paraphrase his way of "translating down" for the have-nots:<br />
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The brain activity of our "everyday" baseline consciousness actively inhibits novel experiences and screens out sights, sounds and smells to which we don't normally give much attention. This probably reduces surprise and uncertainty to the lowest level, thus keeping us in a narrow worldview we may consider to be comfortable. (After all, reducing distractions is helpful to our survival.)<br />
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Psychedelic trips are like shaking up the snowdome of this suppression, loosening up connections of overly-reinforced behaviors. This effect helps people to question their assumptions on a large scale, and even allows for a massive reassembly of the mind into a different pattern.<br />
` Effectively, it helps people to change the 'programming' that shapes their perception, or what I sometimes call the 'operating assumptions system'. This programming comes from socialization, cultural conditioning, and models of the world that we build up in our heads.<br />
` These constraints can cause our view of our own lives to become so rigid that many of our surrounding sensory elements, opportunities, and thought loops escape our notice. (If they weren't so filtered, we might easily be overwhelmed by so much input!)<br />
<br />
These drugs can actually allow one to see how we are constructing our perception of reality, and how our ego-defense mechanisms rationalize our behavior and solve cognitive dissonance. By reducing activity in the ego circuitry, one's awareness is 'taken back' to a state of evolution when we thought more primalistically, without the contrivances of culture.<br />
` During this time, it's possible to see one's own schema, or metaframe, of how one thinks things are, and can more easily spot destructive and irrational behavioral/thought cycles within it. From this position it becomes much easier to recognize the unconscious processes that elicit emotions, and to effectively deal with trauma.<br />
` Without one's "everyday" ego defenses, a person can be more honest with themselves. People can see what they've been hiding from their ego, understand what is bothering them, and then file it away in a new place. In doing this, they can efficiently re-organize their priorities and values, and put traumatic memories in a secure location.<br />
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Those who feel depressed have a reinforced pessimistic pattern, with less openness than others. Psychedelics can break up destructive thought loops and disturb overly-reinforced behaviors, including depression, alcoholism, and anxiety.<br />
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` All this moving and shaking makes one's mind more supple, allowing one to literally think outside the rigid box of their usual patterns. As Timothy Leary might put it, you can find new possibilities by expanding and changing your "reality tunnel".<br />
` Psychological traits such as openness can permanently increase, which can have profound impacts on one's life. Carhart-Harris points out some research indicating that high openness correlates with high economic success as well.<br />
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Weakening the mental restraints and increasing neural connectivity allows more potential for inner change and creativity, which various musical and visual artists are well aware. (That shall be a future topic for this blog -- the Ultimate Artist's Head Trip.)<br />
` On their inner journey, people can so vividly sense their mental life that they can "re-live" their memories, says Carhart-Harris. I would like to add that this mental perception enhancement is probably also why one can "see" what they can imagine as though they had some sort of "holodeck-like" simulation in their heads.<br />
` This is part of how scientists, engineers and philosophers have used their expanded imagination 'space' to help them model a new theory, idea, or even blueprint. Another aspect that helps with problem-solving is the increased connectivity of the brain that occurs:<br />
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I would like to mention the Petri, Expert, et al, analysis of the fMRI of brain connectivity in people under the influence of psilocybin versus a placebo. Their research shows that psilocybin reduces brain activity and synchonizes brain regions that are normally not connected.<br />
` According to their <a href="http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/11/101/20140873.full">most recent paper</a>, the brain really does make new connections, synchronizing certain parts of the brain that were not previously. Most of these connections are fleeting, but some of them are fairly stable.<br />
` This is part of what makes these experiences so earth-shattering and bursting with insight, and may explain why they are also synesthesia-filled. A <a href="http://www.livescience.com/48502-magic-mushrooms-change-brain-networks.html">LiveScience article</a> about this paper repeats what I've explained before -- with a sufficient dose at least, one can never be the same again:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
Many people report intensely spiritual experiences while taking the drug, and some studies even suggest that one <a href="http://www.livescience.com/16287-mushrooms-alter-personality-long-term.html">transcendent trip can alter people's personalities on a long-term basis</a>, making those individuals more open to new experiences and more appreciative of art, curiosity and emotion. </blockquote>
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People who experiment with psilocybin "report it as one of the most profound experiences they've had in their lives, even comparing it to the birth of their children," Expert told Live Science.</blockquote>
Even for the average person with no particular problems, puzzles to solve, or art to create, such psychedelic rearrangement can be described as a "reset button" for their normal routine (especially stress buildup from one's 'daily grind') in order to create spontaneity and personal growth.<br />
` In other words, there's always room for improvement. Plus, sufficient doses can be used for discovering joys of geometrically impossible synesthesia, virtual reality headspaces, and the ability to see in multiple directions with "inner eyes" -- which can be a fun exploration for anyone.<br />
<br />
If such therapeutic and otherwise enjoyable trips are so highly recommended by those who have had them, should people be legally permitted to have them outside of therapy?<br />
` Carhart-Harris says that it would be unfair to legally limit these experiences to the psychologically unwell. Like other psychedelics advocates, he says that use outside of therapy sessions also should be mediated, because some people wind up terrifying themselves, and/or don't learn anything.<br />
<br />
I should mention, there is no such thing as purely recreational use of such powerful drugs, which is why 'recreational use' is more likely to lead to disaster. This is why it is important to have a guide to steer a person over the rough patches, even if they don't need to do much other than give brief reassurances.<br />
<br />
As neuroscientist Sam Harris points out in his book <i>Waking Up</i>, the expanded view of one's mind is a more accurate perception of what your 'ego' or 'self' really is: It is just a construct, separate from your awareness -- and even a moderate dose is enough to bring this sharply into focus.<br />
` Not everyone who takes these drugs pays attention to these aspects of the experience, instead focusing on being over-awed by what has been described by an anonymous tripper as a "a circus-like cacophony of synesthesia and maelstrom of art."<br />
` Personally, I can think of a few morally and intellectually challenged individuals who love taking LSD and have no real concept of the ideas I'm expressing here.<br />
<br />
However, those who are curious about the brain and mind -- especially those who study it in great detail -- cannot help but be astounded at how psychedelics can so eye-openingly reveal the mind's inner workings.<br />
` Although Harris is considered a juggernaut in the atheist community, he points out that experiences such as psychedelic ones are so unique and powerful that the only way to describe them is with words such as 'spiritual' or 'mystical' or 'transcendent'.<br />
` He says that scientists and philosophers commonly seem to think that any type of 'spiritual' experiences are merely deep emotions of love and awe, because they have never had the real thing. Thus, they dismiss them as not much beyond what they can imagine or are familiar with.<br />
<br />
This is one reason that psychedelic therapy, and similarly mind-altering practices have been so undervalued in this culture. These can so drastically change people's values and lives that dismissing them as some way "for other people" to occupy their time is to ignore one of the most worthwhile treasures of humanity.<br />
` As demonstrated by research with these drugs and other ways of drastically warping minds, such transcendent inner events are just as extraordinary as they are real. Though interpretations vary widely, 'spiritual' experiences themselves are not to be written off as trivial, nor associated with belief in spirits.<br />
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For example, many people who have had near-death experiences say that it seemed much more vivid and real than everyday life, so therefore heaven must be real. One can say the same thing about a strong psychedelic trip, which is often described as death and resurrection as a new person.<br />
` Although Jennifer Ouellette said (based on one LSD trip) that your ego merely expands but does not dissolve, a Level 5 can completely dissolve one's identification, or even memory of being an individual -- as with Sam Harris' extremely heroic dose on the lake.<br />
` When done in a good headspace, this is said to be like a blissful nirvana where there is only awareness, the 'true' self. However, one need not take such an extreme dose in order to understand how the ego peels away to reveal the non-cultural programming of the underlying primate consciousness.<br />
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You may know intellectually from neuroscience and psychology that we are essentially "zombies" which mostly operate via unconscious processes. This fact becomes experienced reality during a psychedelic awakening when one is able to see the automatic processes that are normally hidden from one's awareness.<br />
` This sobering revelation is what makes it obvious to people that they play their everyday lives in the same way as games, which have rules and roles that they are automatically playing by. I will argue here that this is one reason why so many religious and government authorities discourage psychedelic use.<br />
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Spreading these drugs and knowledge about how to "turn on" your mind is, apparently, why psychologist Timothy Leary was imprisoned on dubious charges (and escaped) so many times. I haven't read nearly enough of his work yet, although I have been impressed with what I have seen.<br />
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` Last August, I read <a href="https://disinfo.com/2014/08/change-behavior-timothy-learys-first-article-psilocybin/">an excerpt from <i>Timothy Leary: The Harvard Years: Early Writings on LSD and Psilocybin</i></a>. I shall reproduce much of it here, as it relevant to this post.<br />
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Leary's ideas run counter to the predominating behaviorist view of the 1960's where conscious experience is completely ignored. He argued that the best way to change behavior is from within one's experiences.<br />
` He also found that the fastest way by far is with mind-expanding drugs. More reliably than any other method, this allows people to see the 'game' they play in social life, politics, religion, etc. so they can reprogram themselves into new roles:</div>
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<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">All behavior involves learned games. But only that rare Westerner we call “mystic” or who has had a visionary experience of some sort sees clearly the game structure of behavior. Most of the rest of us spend our time struggling with roles and rules and goals and concepts of games which are implicit and confusedly not seen as games, trying to apply the roles and rules and rituals of one game to other games.</span> </blockquote>
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<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Worst of all is the not knowing that it is a game. Baseball is a clean and successful game because it is seen as a game. You can shift positions. You know the game is limited in space and in time. You know how you are doing. You sign your contract. You renew your contract. You can quit, start a new game.</span></blockquote>
And yet, the games of 'real life' are not so easy to get outside of, or even find the limits to.<br />
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<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Culturally, stability is maintained by keeping the members of any cultural group from seeing that the roles, rules, goals, rituals, language, and values are game structures. The family game is treated by most cultures as far more than a game, with its implicit contracts, limited in time and space. The nationality game. It is treason not to play. The racial game. The religious game. And that most treacherous and tragic game of all, the game of individuality, the ego game. The Timothy Leary game. Ridiculous how we confuse this game, overplay it. Our own mystics and the Eastern philosophers have been warning us about this danger for centuries.</span> </blockquote>
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<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Cultural institutions encourage the delusion that the games of life are inevitable givens involving natural laws of behavior. These fixed delusions tend to rigidify behavior patterns. This rigidity, as Professor Osgood pointed out in his significant opening address of the Copenhagen Congress, now threatens the very survival of the human species itself (Osgood, 1962).</span> </blockquote>
This refers to the ruts that governments have gotten into which have led to threatening one another with nuclear weapons. In the next paragraph, Leary begins on the importance of keeping the locus of control inside of a person, as a player in the game, rather than outside of them, in an authority figure.<br />
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<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">So now we come to behavior change. The currently popular method of behavior change is called psychotherapy. A medical game. A curing of the psyche. Psychotherapy interprets confusion and inefficiency in game playing as illness. We call it sickness and attempt to cure it employing the medical game. Consider the football player who doesn’t know the rules. Perhaps he picks up the ball and runs off the field. He is punished for not playing the game correctly. He feels badly. [sic] Shall we pronounce him sick and call the doctor?</span> </blockquote>
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<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The failure to understand the game nature of behavior leads to confusion and eventually to helplessness. ...</span></blockquote>
Though it is not the case for everyone, I have been to dozens of therapists about my decades of trauma, but most either abused me or turned me away. I found only one cognitive-behavioral therapist who was willing to help help me, but alas, I wasn't able to connect to him as a human being.<br />
` He remained an authority figure with no real idea of my inner life, and I remained feeling inadequate because I wasn't able to do what he told me to do. Thus, I wound up feeling more helpless rather than empowered.<br />
` The first time I was ever able to find help with my life's traumas was with someone who understands the concept of games, the influence of language, and who was able to connect with me on a human level.<br />
` That was when I first learned that PTSD and conversion disorder are a cluster of behaviors that I'm doing to myself -- and can stop! -- thus marking the beginning of a huge shift in my recovery.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"></span><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The basic aim of physical science is to reduce human helplessness in the face of the physical environment. </span><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Physical science has other goals, of course: to understand, explain, control, measure, predict. But certainly these are ends rather than means. Why explain? Why predict? To lessen fearful ignorance. ...</span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Do they not stem from the same survival motive? And the social technologies—psychiatry, social work, applied psychology—is not their goal the reduction of confusion and the increase in human freedom?</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Judged by these criteria the game of Western science has not been a glorious success. Our helplessness in the face of physical disease has certainly diminished. Our control over natural forces has given us a sense of mastery. We live longer and healthier lives. Good.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">We have created a game model—the subject-object model—which allows us on the one hand to dominate “object” but which has created a world full of human objects.</span> ...</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The science game, the healing game, the knowledge game are magnificent human structures. They are our proudest game accomplishments. But they are great only as long as they are seen as game. When they go beyond this point the trouble begins—claims to a nongame reality status: the emergence of experts, professionals, priests, status-favored authorities; claims to power and control and priority.</span> ... <span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">At this point you will find that games which began with the goal of decreasing human helplessness end up increasing it.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Human beings inhabiting those areas of the globe which the geographic game calls East are, for the most part, well aware of the foregoing issues. It’s hard for Westerners to back away, and see the artifactual game structures. We are so close to our games. We have been born into them. And we are born into a philosophic system which glorifies hierarchical expertise on the one hand and helplessness on the other: monotheism, the Judaic-Christian tradition.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Monotheism, that game started by a few persecuted outcasts (game losers) in the Mid-Eastern desert: the subject-object game; the false duality game; the manipulating, predicting, controlling game. Monotheism breeding helplessness.</span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Now, let’s apply this general discussion of helplessness and the behavior game to the issue of behavior change. In spite of our apparent executive control over nature we have had small success in developing behavior change games. Indeed most of our attempts to change behavior increase human helplessness, lessen human freedom and thereby exaggerate the problem we set out to solve. Our behavior change games invariably set up structures which give more power to the few and less power to the many, invidious role models: doctor-patient; professor-student; inequitable rules involving secrecy and control; the one-upmanship language we call jargon.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">When people come to us and ask us to change their behavior, why can’t we do it? Why can’t we teach them to see the game structure of human society? The problem seems simple enough. Why can’t we find out what games they are caught up in? Find out what games they want to commit themselves to? Make them explicit? Help them discover the rules of the game, the role, the rituals, the goals, the concepts? Expose them to models of successful game playing; encourage them to practice; feed back objective appraisals of their performance; care for them and their game struggles? How do you care for them? You share time and space with them. Nothing else can substitute.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">We have little else to offer. If we don’t, they’ll learn the games of those who do share time and space. If they’re prisoners, then who will teach them behavior games? Who shares the most time and space with prisoners? That’s right, the other prisoners, older criminals and younger criminals. So who influences behavior in what direction? And who shares the most amount of time and space with prisoners? That’s right, the prison guards who, in most American prisons, teach them how to play the role of robber in the game of “cops and robbers.” And we professional middle-class experts? How much time and space do we share with the prisoners? An hour a week on the medical ward?</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"></span><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">O.K. It sounds simple enough, doesn’t it? Just show people that their social identity and their entire cultural commitment is a game. They aren’t aware of it. Sure, just tell them.</span><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br /></span><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Yes, you smile when I say this. It’s not quite that easy, is it? Here’s the rub. Few people, a very few people (and we Westerners call them mystics) are willing and able to admit that the game is a game. Most of our people become upset and even angry when the game is identified—the game of “I-and-all-I-stand-for.”</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">At this point when you hear the word “mystic” you may be uneasily wondering if you are going to be subjected to a vague metaphysical discourse on general principles. Perhaps you will be surprised to hear me suggest the hypothesis that the most effective approach to the “practical” games of life is that of applied mysticism. Identify the game structure of the event. Make sure that you do not apply the rules and concepts of other games to this situation. Move directly to solve the problem avoiding abstractions and irrelevant rituals. ...</span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">How can we make the point? How can we learn the lesson? How can we Westerners come to see that our own consciousness is infinitely greater than our little egos and the ego games into which we are so blindly caught up? That the universe within our skulls is infinitely more than the flimsy game world which our words and minds create?</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Put in a sentence—the task is to see that the mind is a tiny fragment of the brain-body complex. It is the game-playing fragment—a useful and entertaining tool but quite irrelevant to survival, and indeed usually antagonistic to well-being.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The process of getting beyond the game structure, beyond the subject-object commitments, the dualities—this process is called the mystic experience. The visionary experience is the nongame, metagame experience. Change in behavior can occur with dramatic spontaneity once the game structure of behavior is seen. The visionary experience is the key to behavior change.</span> </blockquote>
So, how is this done? Well, he says, you can pretend to be crazy, you can endure terrible traumas, live in another culture for a year, lock yourself up in a monastic cell, or try sensory deprivation. Even flashing lights or an orgasm can bring a person beyond the game. However:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The most efficient way to cut through the game structure of Western life is the use of drugs, consciousness-expanding drugs. ...</span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Now the reaction of the Western world to consciousness-expanding drugs is extremely interesting. We tend to apply our familiar game roles, rituals, goals, rules, concepts to the non-game experience produced by these substances.</span></blockquote>
One could project one's game rules onto non-game experiences, that is why so many seem to be into these powerful experiences for their entertainment value. The important part is not to give into astonishment, but to use these tools to be aware of one's reality tunnel.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Those of you who have not had the shattering exposure to such old and worshipped plants as peyote and the sacred mushroom and cannabis or such startling newcomers as psilocybin* and lysergic acid will wonder at this point about the nature of these experiences. </span><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">What do these substances do?</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">... The answer from the inside (from the awareness of the subject) can be cast in countless metaphors. Let’s try a physiological analogy. Let’s assume that the cortex, the seat of consciousness, is a millionfold network of neurons, a fantastic computing machine. Cultural learning has imposed a few, pitifully small programs on the cortex. These programs may activate perhaps one-tenth or one one-hundredth of the potential neural connections. All the learned games of life can be seen as programs which select, censor, alert and thus drastically limit the available cortical response (Mr. Aldous Huxley’s reducing valves).</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The CE (i.e., consciousness-expanding) drugs unplug these narrow programs. They unplug the ego, the game machinery, and the mind (that cluster of game concepts). And with the ego and mind unplugged, what is left? Not the “id”; no dark, evil impulses. These alleged negative “forces” are, of course, part of the game, being simply anti-rules. What is left is something that Western culture knows little about: the open brain, the uncensored cortex—alert and open to a broad sweep. Huxley and Dr. Barron have told you in their own words what is left, and there is no need to add my lumbering prose.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">There is need, however, to ask another question. Why is this ecstatic, brain-opening experience so strange and horrid to Western culture? Why have our ancestors and our colleagues tended to ignore and even to oppose the visionary experience? Mr. R. Gordon Wasson, banker, mycologist, anthropologist, gentleman-scholar turned mystic, has traced the persecution of the divine and divinatory mushroom back through the millennia. Why the irrational fear so often aroused by research on CE drugs even to this day? Perhaps because our Western world is committed to overplaying the objective, external behavior game.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">In particular we overvalue the mind—that flimsy collection of learned words and verbal connections; the mind, that system of paranoid delusions with the learned self as center. And we eschew the non-mind, non-game intuitive insight outlook which is the key to the religious experience, to the love experience.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">We seem to oppose any process which puts the game of here and now onto the long evolutionary timetable. This is a natural opposition and a healthy one. It is the greatest game of “the game” versus the “nongame.” Behavior versus consciousness. The universal brain-body versus the cultural mind. The ego versus the species. A dialogue old and holy, like the dialogue of sea against land.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">But this old game should be made explicit if it is to be fun. Unfortunately, the West has no concepts for thinking and talking about this basic dialogue. There is no ritual for mystical experience, for the mindless vision. What should provoke intense and cheerful competition too often evokes suspicion, anger, and impatience. What can be holy and intensely educational in the action of CE drugs on the cortex finds no ritual for application. This is to me one of the greatest challenges of our times.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The nongame visionary experiences are, I submit, the key to behavior change—drug-induced <i style="border: 0px; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">satori. </i>In three hours under the right circumstances the cortex can be cleared. The games that frustrate and torment can be seen in the cosmic dimension. But the West has no ritual, no game to handle the CE drug experience.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">In the absence of relevant rituals we can only impose our familiar games, the politics of the nervous system, the mind controlling the brain. Physicians seek to impose their game of control and prescription. The bohemians naturally strive to impose their games of back-alley secrecy. The police, the third member of the happy, symbiotic drug triangle, naturally move in to control and prosecute.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"></span><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Clearly we need new rituals, new goals, new rules, new concepts to apply and use these precious substances for man’s welfare, to give the brain back to the species.</span> ...</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">This much is clear. The theory of the new game will be simple and basic. Space and time will be among the few variables required. Human equality will be a central principle, for the mystic experience tells us that the game differences between men are infinitely small compared with the age-old species similarities.</span> </blockquote>
What I think he is referring to here is the ability for the drugs to strip people of their cultural programming, "clearing" the cortex, to see how they are deep down, on an animal level. When your awareness is free to expand beyond the power structure game, there is nothing to keep it under anyone else's control.<br />
` Or as the ethno-botanist Terrence McKenna put it, you realize that "only our bodies and nature exist", whereas meaning and social structures are not in any way 'out there' in the world.<br />
<br />
Here it's important to remember the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra">MKUltra</a> military experiments, especially the one where they tried to make 'super soldiers' by giving them LSD. That completely backfired because the men realized that, in reality, no one had any authority over them.<br />
` They refused to play the role of soldier, laughing at orders because they could see that their superiors were actually equals. Indeed, this experiment was just as much of a failure as the Project Stargate attempts at finding military targets via psychic powers.<br />
<br />
Can you see why those in power could be terrified of the idea of people having psychedelics? If the populace experienced the reality that countries and laws are an illusion that humans had no concept of before inventing them (much like God and religion), they would be less inclined to recognize authority and instead play by their own rules.<br />
` There are more than just therapeutic effects in realizing how many of your problems are self-made, but also in realizing that the feeling of submission to those in power is just a mindset. Nobody owns you, and your ID papers have no meaning outside of the game.<br />
<br />
This is, of course, why so many millions in the 1960's were rebelling against the government and the absurd atrocities of the Viet Nam war. Psychedelics fueled their perception of the fact that there is no dividing line that makes any one person so fundamentally different from another. We are all one.<br />
<br />
Next, Leary talks about a couple of important experiments which he was involved in:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of psilocybin when administered in a naturalistic, supportive setting, to observe the rituals and language imposed by Americans on an experience quite alien to their culture. One hundred and sixty-seven subjects were given the mushrooms, 43 female and 124 male. Of these, 26 were internationally distinguished intellectuals, scholars, artists; 10 were medical doctors, 73 were professional intellectuals, 21 nonprofessional normals, 27 were drug addicts (psychological or physical), and 10 were inmates in a state prison.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"></span><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The eleven principles for the human contract led to the following operations:</span> <span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><b>1.</b> Participants alternated roles of observer and subject, i.e., the researchers took the drug with the subjects. The humanizing effect of this procedure cannot be overestimated. Among other things the subject-object issue is clearly settled.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b>2.</b> Participants were given all available information about the drug. An atmosphere of mystery and secret experimentation was avoided. <b>3.</b> Participants were given control of their own dosage. A maximum dosage was determined by the research team and this maximum number of tablets was given to the subject and he was free to dose himself at the rate and amount desired.</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><b>4.</b> A comfortable, homelike environment was employed. The sterile impersonality of the laboratory was avoided.</span> <span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><b>5.</b> Subjects were allowed to bring a relative or friend. No subject took the drug in a group where he was a stranger.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">...While the results of this study are too extensive to summarize at this point, a few major conclusions can be stated: The psilocybin experience is pleasant and educational; seventy-three percent of our subjects reported the experience as “very pleasant” or ecstatic; ninety-five percent thought the experience had changed their lives for the better.</span><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br /></span><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Three out of four subjects reported happy and insightful reactions. When we recall that the drug was given only once under informal circumstances, with no attempt to be therapeutic or problem-oriented, these data stimulate thoughts about the healing-educational possibilities of psilocybin. But how do these changes come about?</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The most common reaction reported is the sudden perception of the effect of abstractions, rituals, learned-game routines—ecstatic pleasure at being temporarily freed from these limitations, a game-free honesty.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Set and suggestive contexts account for ninety-nine percent of the specific response to the drug. Thus, you cannot sensibly talk about the effects of psilocybin. It’s always the set and suggestive context triggered off by the drug.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">A fascinating tension between these two factors—set and context—inevitably develops. If both are positive and holy then a shatteringly sacred experience results. If both are negative then a hellish encounter ensues.</span> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">There is, of course, the tendency for people to impose their familiar games on to the psilocybin experience. The more rigidly committed to the game, the stronger this tendency. If the drug-giving person is secure, flexible, supportive, then the experience is almost guaranteed to be pleasant and therapeutic. Intensely deep communication occurs. Deep insights of a personal, social, and philosophic nature take place.</span></blockquote>
Though Leary knew the potential good that could come of these drugs, he seemed naive about the damage they could do. For example, if someone has already steered themselves deep into a destructive or fanatical reality tunnel, they could wind up entrenching their beliefs even more deeply.<br />
` Even worse, a psychopath could wind up realizing that since meaning doesn't exist 'out there' in the universe, then there is no real reason to not hurt people: Although psychedelics seem to strengthen one's empathy, that does not apply to those who don't experience empathy.<br />
<br />
It is just as true that drugs like psilocybin can be used to rehabilitate criminals -- presumably ones who are not psychopaths:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<strong style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0); border: 0px; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"></strong><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">For many people one or two psilocybin experiences can accomplish the goals of a long and successful psychotherapy, a deep understanding and game-free collaboration between participants plus insight. But what then? People vary tremendously in their readiness to move forward from this point.</span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Many of the 167 subjects in our naturalistic study were able to exploit the close, honest relationship and the insight. They were already involved in rewarding games to which they could return with renewed vision and energy.</span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">But many of our subjects came through the psilocybin experience with the knowledge that they were involved in nonrewarding games, caught in routines which they disliked. Some realized that they had no games they wanted to play. The “therapeutic” effect of the experience did not last for these subjects. Expanded consciousness narrowed back. They were left with pleasant memories of their visionary journey and nothing more.</span><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br /></span><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">After insight comes the deeper question as to the meaning of life: What games to play? Behavior change must follow change in consciousness.</span></blockquote>
Leary's research group changed even their own perceptions on how to rehabilitate and empower prisoners:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"></span><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Ten volunteer prisoners. A maximum security prison. The recidivism rate is eighty percent. Eight of the ten would be expected back in prison a year after release. In baseball terms, eighty percent is the error percentage our team attempted to lower.</span><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br /></span><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">After three orientation meetings with the prisoners, the drug was given. I was the first one to take the drug in that bare hospital room behind barred windows. Three inmates joined me. Two psychologists and the other inmates served as observers—taking the drug three hours later. The psilocybin session was followed by three discussions, then another drug session, then more discussions. At this point the inmates had taken the drug an average of four times. There had been not one moment of friction or tension in some forty hours of egoless interaction.</span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Pre-post testing has demonstrated marked changes on both objective and projective instruments: dramatic decreases in hostility, cynicism, depression, schizoid ideation; definite increases in optimism, planfulness, flexibility, tolerance, sociability.</span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The group has become a workshop for planning future games. Some prisoners are being trained to take over the functions of research assistants. They are performing the tasks of a vocational guidance clinic—preparing occupational brochures for inmates about to be released, making plans to act as rehabilitation workers after their release, for organizing a halfway house for ex-convicts. Other prisoners are using their time to prepare for the games to which they will return—the family game, their old job.</span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The psilocybin experience made these men aware of the stereotyped games in which they had been involved, the game of “cops and robbers,” the game of being a tough guy, the game of outwitting the law, the game of resentful cynicism. “My whole life came tumbling down and I was sitting happily in the rubble.” But insight is the beginning, and the more demanding task is to help these men choose new games, help them learn the rules, the roles, the concepts, the rituals of the new game—practical, collaborative reality education. ...</span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"></span><span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">A final word of clarification: Those of us who talk and write about the games of life are invariably misunderstood. We are seen as frivolous, or cynical anarchists tearing down the social structure. This is an unfortunate misapprehension. Actually, only those who see culture as a game, only those who take this evolutionary point of view can appreciate and treasure the exquisitely complex magnificence of what human beings do and have done. To see it all as “serious, taken-for-granted reality” is to miss the point, is to derogate with bland passivity the greatness of the games we learn.</span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Those of us who play the game of “applied mysticism” respect and support good gamesmanship. You pick out your game. You learn the rules, rituals, concepts. You play fairly and cleanly. You don’t confuse your games with other games. You do not impose your game rituals on others’ games. You win today’s game with humility. You lose tomorrow’s game with dignity. Anger and anxiety are irrelevant because you see your small game in the context of the great evolutionary game which no one can win and no one can lose.</span></blockquote>
</div>
While current science continues to demonstrate Leary's insights, they are still not widely known or valued in Western culture. Here we run into a dilemma that might be especially interesting to those of the Skeptic community:<br />
<br />
Those who have had such life-changing experiences would probably take for granted that Leary has accurately described the reality and possibilities of psychedelic therapy.<br />
` An interesting corollary; it is only those who have not had such experiences that have the choice of dismissing them or playing them down as something that can be achieved without drugs.<br />
<br />
It is a tragedy when they do so: If you are blind and dismiss what others tell you of what it's like to see as "mere anecdote" or "personal opinion" what does that say about you?<br />
` How do you think the sighted would regard your argument from ignorance? With cruel irony, they could still never explain to you what seeing was like, so you couldn't know that they were right.<br />
<br />
Many have used these drugs to see through the power structure, to know that they are equal in power to bullies and/or authority figures. They can see that others can't control them with words unless they play the role of the subject.<br />
` This includes the government. When seeing games from the outside, one can notice that structures such as governments, laws and countries only exist in the same way that religions do -- through belief. People may structure their lives around their beliefs collectively, but these are still just beliefs, not reality.<br />
<br />
John Lennon almost had it when he wrote "imagine there's no countries", but in reality the words should be "stop imagining there's countries", and religion too! Thus, there is no such thing as a president, and Richard Nixon apparently had a real problem with this.<br />
` Is it any wonder that he described Leary as <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/01/us/timothy-leary-pied-piper-of-psychedelic-60-s-dies-at-75.html?src=pm&pagewanted=2">"the most dangerous man in America"</a> for spreading his mind-freeing ideas?<br />
<br />
Although I said I wouldn't include any more emails to our lucky skeptic (George Hrab) on this subject, this here is a slightly modified Facebook message I sent him last June -- also largely consisting of quotes because it is easier to cut and paste than type with an iPhone:<br />
<br />
<span style="color: #20124d;">"Someone just sent me <a href="http://reset.me/story/howpsychedelicssavedmylife/">this link</a> about Amber Lyon, who won an Emmy for her CNN news correspondenceness, and who was also horribly traumatized by her experiences as an immersive journalist in war-torn areas. Until she tried psychedelic therapies, that is.</span><br />
<div>
<span style="color: #20124d;"><br /></span></div>
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<span style="color: #20124d;">She says:</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #20124d;">I invite you to take a step back and clear your mind of decades of false propaganda. Governments worldwide lied to us about the medicinal benefits of marijuana. The public has also been misled about psychedelics. </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #20124d;">These non-addictive substances- MDMA, ayahuasca, ibogaine, psilocybin mushrooms, peyote, and many more- are proven to rapidly and effectively help people heal from trauma, PTSD, anxiety, addiction and depression.</span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #20124d;">...If I had any reservations, doubts, or disbeliefs, they were quickly expelled shortly after my first ayahuasca experience. The foul-tasting tea vibrated through my veins and into my brain as the medicine scanned my body. My field of vision became engulfed with fierce colors and geometric patterns. ... The vividly introspective movie played in my mind as I relived my most painful scenes- </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #20124d;">... The ayahuasca enabled me to reprocess these events, detaching the fear and emotion from the memories. The experience was akin to ten years of therapy in one eight-hour ayahuasca session.</span></blockquote>
<span style="color: #20124d;">This is a fairly typical reaction, if myriad reports and research papers are to be believed. Amber said that she was beyond amazed and continued to immerse herself in investigating these drugs. Psilocybin mushrooms were next:</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #20124d;">"Perhaps most astounding, the mushrooms silenced the self-critical part of my mind long enough for me to reprocess memories without fear or emotion. "</span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #20124d;">...As I relived each moment of the detainment, I reprocessed each memory moving it from the “fear” folder to its new permanent home in the “safe” folder in my brain’s hard drive.</span><br />
<span style="color: #20124d;">Five ceremonies with psilocybin mushrooms cured my anxiety and PTSD symptoms. The butterflies that had a constant home in my stomach have flown away. </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #20124d;">...I still have to work to maintain the healing with the use of floatation tanks, meditation, and yoga."</span></blockquote>
<span style="color: #20124d;">Keeping your head in your daily life afterwards is key to maintaining one's post-PTSD health -- it helps especially to live in a peaceful environment, as I have learned from repeatedly returning to a disruptive and abusive environment after purging my own symptoms.</span><br />
<span style="color: #20124d;">` In fact, living in such a stressful environment is exactly the sort of thing that brings back our learned helplessness.</span><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #20124d;">"This very world that glamorizes war, violence, commercialism, environmental destruction, and suffering has outlawed some of the most profound keys to inner peace. The War on Drugs is not based on science. If it was, two of the most deadly drugs on earth-alcohol and tobacco- would be illegal. Those suffering from trauma have become victims of this failed war and have lost one of the most effective ways to heal.</span><br />
<span style="color: #20124d;">Humanity has gone mad as a result.... </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #20124d;">...Trauma rests in the violent criminal, the cheating spouse, the corrupt politician, those suffering from mental illness, addictions, inside those too fearful to take risks and reach their full potential. </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #20124d;">If it’s not adequately processed and purged, trauma becomes cemented onto the hard drive of the mind, growing into a dark parasite that rears its ugly head throughout a person’s entire life. The wounds keep us locked in a grid of fear, trapped behind a personality not true to the soul, working a mundane job rather than following a passion, repeating a cycle of abuse, destroying the environment, harming one another. The most common and severe suffering is inflicted during childhood and hijacks the driver’s seat into adulthood, steering an individual down a road deprived of happiness....” </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #20124d;">..."It’s a human rights crisis psychedelics are not accessible to the general population. It’s insane that governments worldwide have outlawed the very medicines that can emancipate our souls from suffering. </span></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="color: #20124d;">It’s time we stop the madness."</span></blockquote>
<span style="color: #20124d;">I would add that although it is insane, it makes sense for people in power to take away the very things that hinder their ability to control the population via propaganda. Why do you think that such a crucial life skill as critical thinking is not generally taught in public schools, although obedience is?</span><br />
<span style="color: #20124d;"><br /></span>
<span style="color: #20124d;">It is very obvious to me why these drugs would be outlawed by corrupt sociopaths in charge of ruling us all with guns and wanting us to support wars."</span></div>
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<br /></div>
<div>
That's certainly something to think about, and it would explain the government propaganda that tells us all to "just say no to drugs", as though all drugs are bad. Psilocybin and LSD, the most popular psychedelics, are neither toxic nor very intoxicating, and should not be lumped into the same category as heroin or cocaine.<br />
<br />
Speaking of Facebook, I have elicited dramatically negative reactions just by posting psychedelic items on my timeline. Up next is a copy-paste example of the type of "psychedelic denialism" from those of the skeptical community that I've described in Parts 1-3.</div>
<div>
` This was after posting a video of ethnobotanist Terrence McKenna speaking about how culture is not your friend, i.e. culture is selfish like Richard Dawkins' "selfish gene". Just as genes apparently use living things as a way to replicate themselves, memes use minds in the same way.<br />
` Using Dawkins' terminology, culture is a memeplex -- or a worldview of ideas, which perpetuate themselves without regard to the individual's well-being, spreading like a virus. Some memes are healthy for us and others aren't, yet we know that many unhealthy memes have no problem finding hosts.</div>
<div>
<br />
The key here is that the memes are replicated, regardless of whether they are good for people to believe. Submission to authority and not asking questions are two mechanisms in which harmful cultural memes can be passed on in spite of themselves.<br />
` In this way, blind adherence to various cultural elements are a destructive habit. Psychedelics of course disrupt this process, which is what McKenna was describing in the video. I was interested to note that Sam Harris had this to say on page 236 of his book <i>Waking Up</i>:</div>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
Terrence McKenna is one person I regret not getting to know. Unfortunately, he died from brain cancer in 2000, at the age of fifty-three. His books are well worth reading, but he was, above all, an amazing speaker. It is true that his eloquence often led him to adopt positions that can only be described (charitably) as "wacky," but he was undeniably brilliant and always worth listening to.</blockquote>
In the main text of his book, Harris quotes one of McKenna's descriptions of a DMT trip in order to demonstrate its similarity to the descriptions of "the afterlife" as according to the neurosurgeon Eben Alexander, who wrote the book "Proof of Heaven".<br />
<div>
` Alexander insists that the psychedelic experience is "not even in the right ballpark" as his own near-death experience, which he claims occurred while his brain was offline -- therefore, heaven must be real. As expected, Harris convincingly argues the opposite.</div>
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<br /></div>
<div>
As I have mentioned previously in this series, there is plenty of archaeological and historical evidence that psychedelic mushrooms and plants were once important to many of the world's religions. This history, however, seems to go back very far.<br />
` For example, there are 7,000-9,000 year old caves painting in Algeria showing mushroom offerings and even bizarre figures covered in what appear to be mushrooms. There are also mushroom shaman cave art depicted in Libya, Chad, Egypt, and even in the Swedish bronze age. (Some of it can be viewed <a href="http://www.samwoolfe.com/2013/04/are-cave-paintings-sign-of-shamanism.html">on this page</a>.)<br />
<br />
McKenna, who studied with the shamans of Tibet and South America, argued that it is these vivid, hyper-real psychedelic experiences which probably prompted the rise of the first religions. This is certainly not beyond the bounds of possibility, although conclusive evidence has been lost in time.<br />
` He also referred to responsible psychedelic use as "practicing shamanism", in much the same way that Timothy Leary described "applied mysticism". I lifted this quote from McKenna's Wikipedia page:</div>
<div>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
What I think happened is that in the world of prehistory all religion was experiential, and it was based on the pursuit of ecstasy through plants. And at some time, very early, a group interposed itself between people and direct experience of the 'Other.' This created hierarchies, priesthoods, theological systems, castes, ritual, taboos. Shamanism, on the other hand, is an experiential science that deals with an area where we know nothing. It is important to remember that our epistemological tools have developed very unevenly in the West. We know a tremendous amount about what is going on in the heart of the atom, but we know absolutely nothing about the nature of the mind.</blockquote>
The first comment was from a well-established member of the skeptical community who has had some psychedelic experiences and who thought this video to be interesting. He asked what shamans would know about fixing the problems of capitalism -- a fair question indeed!<br />
` Shamans in this context refer to people who have experienced the meta-game, who have pulled themselves out of games like capitalism and can look at them from the outside. However, the second commenter, Ed Clint, had no clue at all what Terrence was on about. He wrote:<br />
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<span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152609619774201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152609619774201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">This seems like 100% woo bullshit. Shamanism? using drugs to "reset" in your mind? Yeah minds don't really work that way, and nobody on shrooms ever made any amazing breakthrough in knowledge or understanding. </span><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152609619774201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152609619774201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152609619774201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">Culture isn't in any sense our "operating system", and it isn't a prison either. Quite the contrary, culture, with its flaws and problems also allows for progress. </span><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152609619774201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152609619774201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152609619774201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">Shamans are just a mix of storyteller, magician, and fraud. They have no special knowledge or insights.</span></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616904719201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class="UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616904719201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Spoony Quine</a></span><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616904719201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616904719201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616904719201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">lol exactly.</span><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616904719201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616904719201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616904719201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">Ed, look up Francis Crick LSD , and other scientists who used psychedelics, and check out research about psychedelics 'resetting' one's beliefs about the world and sense of self, which is partly culturally programmed.</span></span></div>
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I did not have much interest being pulled into another Facebook comment war, so I did not elaborate, although I will reiterate here what I've said in previous parts of the Ultimate Skeptic's Head Trip:<br />
<br />
The person's mind and inclination shapes their psychedelic experience -- these drugs do not make people smarter. However, they can be used as a powerful tool. As I've mentioned, artists can experience visions, music, sound, and concepts in such an alien way that can spark inspiration.<br />
<br />
I've also explained that some scientists and philosophers have used psychedelics to increase their ability to visualize and conceptualize, in order to solve problems they doubt they would have been able to solve otherwise. (Kary Mullis also credits his Nobel prize to his use of LSD, etc.)<br />
` This is not anything like receiving knowledge, but rather using the expanded mind like a sort of computer program that can do a lot of the work using the models that they already know and building from there. In other words, re-organizing the information in novel ways.<br />
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Unfortunately, Ed was similarly unenthusiastic about searching the internet for such information, and completely misinterpreted what I had meant.</div>
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<span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616985024201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class="UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1154349548&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616985024201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/ed.clint?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Ed Clint</a></span><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616985024201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616985024201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616985024201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0">Scientists having used psychedelics is not proof that they *cause* better ideas. I have a degree in psychology, and I have never heard of any such research. Google only turns up woo-woo sites not scientific papers.</span><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616985024201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616985024201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616985024201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0">More basically speaking, the last thing a researcher usually needs is to have their beliefs about the world reset. To think this is key to science is to not understand what doing research is like, or what is required. There are times you need to get fresh perspectives and new ideas. But most of the time, you need to understand the ideas out there already. To have clarity and focus. To build on the knowledge of others. </span><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616985024201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616985024201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616985024201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0">See we need a framework to understand anything. Francis Crick co-discovered DNA. But Crick would never have known to look for a mechanism of heredity if Gregor Mendel hadn't already came up with that idea, nor if Darwin did not discover how it works in nature. Crick needed the cultural "programming", he needed those beliefs, that knowledge or he never would have done anything. </span><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616985024201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616985024201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616985024201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0">Meticulous researchers cure diseases and build space programs. No shaman yet has done more than swindle, entertain, and comfort.</span></span></div>
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I'll point out here that Francis Crick did not co-discover DNA, he figured out that it had a double helix structure, and credits LSD with his ability to have figured it out. (Another Nobel there!)</div>
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` While high on LSD, Crick said he created a representation of the molecules (something like a computer model), based on what he knew about how the atoms fit together. He discovered that the model in his head had a double helix.</div>
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` So, Francis Crick saw the double helix on LSD, which was later confirmed in real life. Many other scientific and technological visionaries have seen their visions of computer chips or sound engineering during similar types of experiences.</div>
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<span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616997324201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class="UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=100000543504197&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616997324201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/robertjschryvers?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Robert von Schryvers</a></span><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616997324201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152616997324201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">What does McKenna mean by shaman in this context. Does everyone with a psych degree agree with you. Is argument from.authority valid. Can we claim to know what crick may never have known. Did the founder of Apple computer lie about this? Has every internet search besides yours resulted in the same conclusion. (Taboo subject, right?) Has anyone asserted that cultural beliefs are unnecessary. Are all frameworks (schemas, metaframes) equally valid and useful. Does not ever hearing of such research prove this does not happen, or that there is no research What so ever ( shifting burden of proof)</span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617010519201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class="UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1154349548&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617010519201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/ed.clint?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Ed Clint</a></span><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617010519201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617010519201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">1. Ask him yourself if you are curious. 2. Not relevant. Absolute questions about "all" are unhelpful. 3. I made no argument from authority. 4. Yes. Scientific knowledge is progressive. 5. No idea what you're talking about. 6. Another absolute/extreme question "every". Unhelpful. I've made no claims about"every" anything, please do not reply as if I did. 7. No, nor did I claim that. The idea I am refuting is that "resetting" is key to discovery. 8. No. 9. I never claimed it did not happen or that there isn't any. Since I am not the one making claims, the burden of proof is not, and never has been, mine.</span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617019559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class="UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=100000543504197&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617019559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/robertjschryvers?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Robert von Schryvers</a></span><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617019559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617019559201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">He's dead, so we can't ask, but his writings seem to be a modern interpretation of shaman. Resetting is just reframing, with the help of psychotropics, creative insight can be had by this. the scientific method is certainly better for discovery, although I don't think led zeppelin or the Beatles were scientists.</span></div>
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<a aria-hidden="true" class="img _8o _8s UFIImageBlockImage" data-ft="{"tn":"T"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=100000543504197&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617024659201:0.0.$left.0" href="https://www.facebook.com/robertjschryvers?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; display: inline !important; font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; margin: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="-1"><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617024659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$text0:0:$0:0" style="color: #141823; font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px;">Here is a quite common anecdotal report from direct experience, field reports as sloppy as then are, this typifies the general lore from millions of users </span></a><a class="" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617024659201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$range0:0" dir="ltr" href="http://reset.me/story/howpsychedelicssavedmylife/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-size: 12.222222328186px; line-height: 17.0666675567627px; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">http://reset.me/story/howpsychedelicssavedmylife/</a></blockquote>
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This is the Amber Lyon article, quoted above, which also contains some interesting links to other articles -- some of them more reliable than others.<br />
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<span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617042869201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class="UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1154349548&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617042869201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/ed.clint?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Ed Clint</a></span><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617042869201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617042869201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">That link is to a report about the therapeutic value of narcotics. I was not commenting on such a use.</span><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617042869201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.4"></span></div>
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<span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617278634201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class="UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=692039200&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617278634201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/spoony.quine?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Spoony Quine</a></span><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617278634201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617278634201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617278634201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617278634201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617278634201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Ed, you have no idea what type of reset I am referring to.</span><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617278634201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617278634201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$2:0">As far as shamans go, he means something like those who knows how to get into someone's head.</span></span><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617278634201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617278634201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617278634201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617278634201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617278634201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">... I have somewhere to go, be back when I have The time <span class="emoticon emoticon_smile" style="background-image: url(https://fbstatic-a.akamaihd.net/rsrc.php/v2/yP/r/90b8T5aM1AH.png); background-position: 0px -7986px; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-size: auto; display: inline-block; height: 16px; vertical-align: top; width: 16px;" title=":-)"></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
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I would like to point out Ed's use of the word 'narcotics', which is a term of art, or weasel word, having a misleading and derogatory meaning. It used to mean a drug with a sedative effect (narco = sleep), but now means any illegal drug.<br />
` So, for example, tobacco is illegal in Bhutan, therefore it is a narcotic -- but only in that jurisdiction! The same can be said for alcohol in countries such as Bangaladesh, Iran and Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. It's a meaningless word that is used specifically to invoke prejudice.<br />
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<span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617340994201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a aria-haspopup="true" aria-owns="js_g" class="UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=1154349548&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617340994201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/ed.clint?fref=ufi" id="js_h" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;" tabindex="0">Ed Clint</a></span><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617340994201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617340994201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617340994201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617340994201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617340994201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">In the first ~2 minutes or so, the video narrator talks about how it is important in "aboriginal" societies (I would like to know which, I study anthropology as well, but none are named) for them to use drugs in order to shed their cultural beliefs, wh</span></span><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617340994201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617340994201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617340994201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">ich are replaced with something primal from the"animal soul" or some such; and only subsequent to this can we start to ask meaningful questions about human nature and the human condition.</span><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617340994201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617340994201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617340994201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">This is just mysticism. The promotion of the incorrect idea that nature is good and society is bad (naturalistic fallacy), that the "aboriginal" peoples hold hidden wisdom and special knowledge. No, they don't. They believe in mad things, like that their particular ethnic group has existed since the (recent) dawn of creation and that disease is caused by ghosts, that the sun is a god, etc.., </span><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617340994201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617340994201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152617340994201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">I'm really not generally interested in arguing about mysticism, psychics, etc.., I'm just surprised this showed up on my FB at all. I am not defriending because I am angry or hold any ill will, you've always seemed perfectly nice and I remember having fun chatting with you at the Del Mar the TAM before last. Nothing personal, I just don't want this stuff in my newsfeed.</span></span></span></span></span></div>
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It should be thoroughly clear by now that I do not actually hold nor promote the beliefs that Ed has projected onto me and then used the straw man as an excuse to un-friend me. (He could simply remove my posts from his newsfeed without doing so, but that wouldn't be passive-aggressive enough.)<br />
` Terrence McKenna didn't believe in souls, he was using the word metaphorically, as with the term 'soul music'. I am not at all convinced of ESP or souls, nor that primitive cultures hold special knowledge, yet this is the kind of knee-jerk defensive accusation I get from people who have no clue or curiosity about my position.<br />
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Note also that Ed dismissed this all as 'just mysticism.' Can you guess what Sam Harris might have to say about that?<br />
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The shedding of the ego puts one's cultural programming at arm's length, or in the case of a Level 5, can utterly blast it away temporarily. Much work of mental rearrangement can be done while one's ego is reassembling, as I've described throughout this series.<br />
` Underneath the cultural programming is the witness, the conscious observer, which is not identical to the ego. Without the trappings of culture, one can experience themselves as they are without this indoctrination -- as an animal, nothing more contrived than a primate.<br />
` With the cultural distortions cleared, one can have a real idea of what a human being is outside of culture, what its true nature is. How do we make assumptions about what is basic to our nature when every human being is enmeshed in some culture or other?<br />
` It is one thing to catalog cross-cultural behavior as 'basic human nature', and another thing to see our cultural beliefs as they exist -- apart from our 'true' nature. How do we really know what influence culture has on one individual in particular if we cannot remove it and view ourselves without it?<br />
<br />
Timothy Leary called these drugs 'deconditioning agents', which are so powerful that Charles Manson's cult and others, such as Aum Shimrikyo, found them useful in brainwashing their followers into group loyalty and committing atrocious acts against humanity.<br />
` Indeed, for thousands of years psychedelics have been used in promoting tribal solidarity and delusional beliefs -- think of the ancient Mayans sacrificing people each day so that the sun would rise. Yet, they worshipped psilocybin and <i>Amanita muscaria</i> mushrooms!<br />
` Psychedelics do not give us wisdom, they only give us the opportunity to explore our minds more deeply, to reprogram ourselves, and to use our minds in ways that one may not otherwise know were possible. They are powerful tools that can be misused -- much like nuclear energy.</div>
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<span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152618798589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class="UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=539962723&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152618798589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/scot.bastian?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Scot Bastian</a></span><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152618798589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152618798589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152618798589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152618798589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152618798589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">I side with Ed on most of this. I wouldn't want a complete reset of my brain. I would lose my capacity for language, for one thing. Isn't language a product of culture? I don't think that aboriginals have any particular monopoly on wisdom and nice, emp</span></span><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152618798589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152618798589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152618798589201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">ty labels like "shaman" are unhelpful. How can you identify a wise shaman? Is James Randi a good Shaman? How about Jim Jones? This in no way implies that we shouldn't be open to new ideas, but you have to be careful, as they say, that your mind isn't so open that your brains fall out.</span></span></span></span></span></div>
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Certainly psychedelics have not caused anyone to lose their language capacity -- although perhaps he was implying that resetting one's brain doesn't happen. Here, "resetting" only refers to erasing harmful beliefs and clearing away the 'mental grimy imput'. Without these impediments, one's skills and capacity for communication can actually be quite improved.</div>
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Resetting involves the dissolution of the ego and the everyday habits and assumptions ("operating system"), and the realization that you are not your thoughts or behaviors. Thus, you can control these thoughts and behaviors.<br />
` Your habits in the past do not dictate your habits in the future, if you wish to change them. They disassemble, yes, but they are not exactly erased: Once you disconnect yourself from them, you can rearrange them into a more useful structure, and get rid of the parts you don't want.</div>
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` As for the word 'shaman' in this case, it refers to people who have had visionary experiences, the 'mystics' Leary was talking about, who have a deeper understanding of the nature of self than do the 'have-nots'.</div>
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<span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152618817699201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class="UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=757863872&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152618817699201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/Sometimes.Saintly.Nick?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Nicholas Temple</a></span><span data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152618817699201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".dw.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152618817699201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body">I learned this and more over the past 10+ years studying the training and practices of shamans over the world. Thanks for sharing, Spoony.</span><br />
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I was glad for this comment. Might I point out that the skeptic psychedelic user and the person who has studied with shamans find what Terrence McKenna says to be compelling, but these other two have no reference. Rob also commented once more from his phone:<br />
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<span data-reactid=".41.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152810507899201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author"><a class="UFICommentActorName" data-ft="{"tn":";"}" data-hovercard="/ajax/hovercard/hovercard.php?id=100000543504197&extragetparams=%7B%22hc_location%22%3A%22ufi%22%7D" data-reactid=".41.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152810507899201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.$author.0" dir="ltr" href="https://www.facebook.com/robertjschryvers?fref=ufi" style="color: #3b5998; cursor: pointer; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Robert von Schryvers</a></span><span data-reactid=".41.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152810507899201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:0"> </span><span data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" data-reactid=".41.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152810507899201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body"><span class="UFICommentBody" data-reactid=".41.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152810507899201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0"><span data-reactid=".41.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152810507899201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".41.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152810507899201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Defrending, is not an argument.</span><br data-reactid=".41.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152810507899201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".41.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152810507899201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$2:0">McKenna really does venture into woo land, probably for poetic reasons. I think a bigger exposure to his works gives a contextual perspective that is lost within a single video. He uses unusual metaphors and so the lis</span></span><span data-reactid=".41.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152810507899201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".41.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152810507899201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".41.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152810507899201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">tener is tempted to take a literal interpretation. But to be fair, these kinds of ineffable experiences are quite the terra incognita, as it is impossible to describe adequately without art and poetry. </span><br data-reactid=".41.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152810507899201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><span data-reactid=".41.1:3:1:$comment10152609306699201_10152810507899201:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$2:0">As an asside, psylocybin is not a narcotic, anyone with access to mere Wikipedia knows that.</span></span></span></span></span></div>
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I think that's enough Facebook comments for now, and hope I have left my readers bubbling with questions such as:<br />
` How <i>does</i> your mind appear from from an angle? What exactly do five-dimensional kaleidoscopic universes look like, anyway? What is it like to be an instrument through which music streams and becomes technicolor visual-spatial structures that course through one's body?<br />
<br />
At least the first question can be somewhat answered by Robin Carhart Harris, in this video, as promised. Although I have found the background graphics to be more distracting than helpful, his verbal description nevertheless seems solid.<br />
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<iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/zrYl9krZksk?rel=0" width="640"></iframe></div>
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I hope that the have-nots have learned a little more about this subject. Perhaps they have even learned enough to understand what Terrence McKenna was saying in his video. I've done enough embedding for one post, so here's the link:<br />
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<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAGxjOr3vYA"><b>Terrence McKenna -- Culture is not your friend</b></a><br />
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Excerpt:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
"It's fun to think this way, because it shows you don't have to be the victim of your culture, it's not like your eye color or your heighth or your gender, it's fragile. It can be remade, if you wish it to be. And then the question is, how does one download a new operating system?... You can put a lot of things in the trash and have them just disappear with a psilocybin upgrade. ..." </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
"I think we should all aspire to make this upgrade. It's very important that you have all the bells and whistles on your operating system, otherwise somebody is going to be able to get a leg up on you."</blockquote>
If you can see the game from the shamanic visionary perspective, you have an advantage. You can see how your own mind works, you are free from your cultural roles in life. You can see through the power structure. You know it's just a game.<br />
` Understanding that it's all a game, to me, is the highest and most freeing level of all skepticism -- why else would so many people in power consider these drugs to be such a threat?</div>
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Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8090530800266151376.post-68639706978363150622014-09-30T15:06:00.004-07:002015-02-08T19:10:45.641-08:00Surviving and keeping sane whilst attempting to transcend the asylumI've been insanely busy lately, and have been writing about other things such as <a href="http://www.worldcannabis.net/sex-and-cannabis/the-teen-brain-on-cannabis-2/">The Teen Brain on Cannabis</a>. As much as I love the stuff, it's important to learn about the negative effects it can have, as well as to think about the causes of teen drug use.<br />
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Though my The Amazing Meeting (TAM) series is still somewhat backburnered, here's a little taste: Richard Saunders (who I heart forever) interviewed me about the Solar Flare drawings I had made (now framed and in Australia). You can hear that at about 15:45 in <a href="http://skepticzone.libsyn.com/the-skeptic-zone-301-27july2014">episode 301 of the Skeptic Zone</a>.<br />
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Last weekend, I was shooting a commercial for <a href="http://westseattlehypnosis.com/">Rob (hypnotist of doom)</a>, and have been learning more about hypnosis, mentalism, magic, scientology, faith healing and acupuncture and how they're all basically suggestion techniques used for different purposes.<br />
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Before moving onto the rest of my news, I bet some of you are wondering who I was trying to drag through the Ultimate Skeptic's Head Trip parts 1-3. That would be the very sweet, square, snarky, skeptical and strange musician/entertainment guy, George Hrab.<br />
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Last winter and spring, I was able to <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2013/12/just-when-christmas-lulled-us-into.html">occasionally blog about</a> how doubleplus ungood my life had become, considering that it required less brainpower than writing about science. During whatever tedium was at hand, I spent a lot of time listening to many of Geo's earlier podcasts. It really helped me to make fun of the actual crazy-making going on around me.<br />
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As I listened back and forth between semi-random older episodes as well as the newest ones, I noticed that Geo started out having more sketches and segments, whereas in newer episodes he mentioned how he doesn't do as much of that as before.<br />
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In one of the newer episodes, he talked about how he has lived in the same place and has retained the same recreational habits for the past 20 years. He also said that he's never had to go through any sort of terrible ordeal or illness. I recognized this lack of upheaval as one of the probable reasons his creative output and evolution no longer seemed to be going as fast as previously.<br />
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At times, I was also experiencing a lot of really neat, hypnosis-related surreality in my life as well as learning various ways of building one's mental flexibility and creativity. However, due to my decision to take care of my ex, I was using these skills to improve my 'adaptation to tough times' ability.<br />
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For months, neither my brain nor laptop were both functioning and online, thus making writing, building my own mental flexibility, and checking sources all the more difficult. I did, occasionally, climb out of the muck and revert once again to my clear-headed state long enough to study more survival and sanity skills for a few days.<br />
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Fighting to internalize this knowledge, I figured that at very least, I should be able to write something from the top of my head about this subject which would be intelligible enough to be interesting or even useful. Not so much for a blog post, but for emails, and one of those emails went to Geo.<br />
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It might have stopped there, except I also noticed that Geo often mentioned that he didn't do any mind-altering drugs -- except the (mind-narrowing) substances caffeine and tobacco.<br />
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He didn't seem to think those narrow his creativity, so to speak, yet he has opined that mind-expanding drugs, among others, probably hinder other musicians' creativity. Yes, this includes The Beatles, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, and the one he practically has a segment about, Yes.<br />
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That really blew my mind.<br />
<a name='more'></a><br />
Quite the opposite would seem to be true, which is a subject worthy of its own skeptical blog post. It took a few more mentions of drugs in newer episodes of his show before I actually got thinking about writing to him on the subject.<br />
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Around that time, I discovered that Geo's friends at Skeptic's Guide to the Universe had interviewed Jennifer Ouellette about her study of the self and how dropping acid seems to have been the most interesting/unique part of this.<br />
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I recalled Geo once saying that he was not even curious about looking at things differently from any sort of drug-altered perspective, and probably never would be. Assuming he was aware of Ouellette's explorations, I wondered did he think any differently about this at all?<br />
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One thing led to another, and... let's just say, I had a bit of time on my hands to spend on keeping myself sane, while also attempting to keep my office on the outside of the asylum. Soon enough, I had to put my belongings in storage, went off to The Amazing Meeting not knowing if I would have a home afterward, and then found myself living in an even more cramped place than ever.<br />
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Later, I figured my emails about chemically-induced worlds would be better spent as a more general message to skeptics, so I put them on my blog, <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-ultimate-skeptics-head-trip-part-1.html">starting here</a>. After finishing Part 3, I got a Facebook comment from another of the Skeptic community saying that now he was curious about trying LSD himself.<br />
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I was almost surprised to have sparked such significant curiosity for someone. Of course, there are laws against the safest psychedelics in much of the world, and the experiences thereof, and Part 4 will focus on some of the reasons why that is.<br />
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As for other parts of my life, there have been a lot of ups and downs, although the overall trend tends to be ups.<br />
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For a bit of a recap, <a href="http://madsciencewriter.blogspot.com/2014/06/ive-been-hoping-i-would-have-some-good.html">after all these absurdly brutal events</a>, I am now living in an even more absurd situation, during which my ex and I have been getting along progressively better.<br />
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At first we had four roommates, although six now seems a bit crowded. My ex is has much improved since withdrawing from serious pain meds and going back to work.<br />
` No, he still hasn't had any medical treatment for his back injury, but he did invent an especially strong cannabis oil, and put substantial amounts of it into a skin cream. He uses that to prevent the inflammation and subsequent vomiting that has sent him to the ER so many times.<br />
` The injury shrunk noticeably when he used it several times a day, despite an otherwise lack of treatment. I wrote <a href="http://www.worldcannabis.net/sex-and-cannabis/the-power-of-super-concentrated-cannabis-oil/">an article about this on World Cannabis</a>, for further details.<br />
` So, now that my ex is working again and not dying of stomach paralysis, he is planning to sue those who have been preventing him from opening his work injury claim for the past two years.<br />
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As for my writing ability, things have been going really well since I've had a chair that allows me to sit with good posture, i.e. not crouching. This has had a profound impact on my amount of muscle pain, mood, etc.<br />
` Originally, I had planned to turn more of my attention to my various books and magazines, mostly sciencey stuff, and get back to writing about my masses of learning material. However, those things are still in storage because we don't have the amount of space we were originally promised.<br />
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My life has changed a lot since I've been cut off from a lot of my normal activities, although a good friend of mine is lending one of his four corners to my Clavinova electric piano, which is enough reason to be eternally grateful.<br />
` I am able to practice at least a few times a week, even record more music for my as-yet-unreleased mind-bending podcast.<br />
` Until I find an acceptable "outside" to the asylum, I don't think I will have enough time to publish episodes on a regular basis, although who says they have to be on a regular basis?<br />
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In other news, lately I have spent time with a skepticy friend from out of town, and we even went to Steven's Pass. The Lighthouse Festival aftermath party was excellent as usual, fireworks and all. This time Dr. Hypno was there, discussing hypnosis with one of our former neighbors, and actually hyonotizing her daughter, who has been keen on it for some time.<br />
` I also got to play the piano, which I had never done before there, and apparently amazed everyone who was listening. I did not, however, try hypnotizing anyone -- party environments tend to discourage that with me, at least.<br />
` A few days later, I visited our former neighbors at their house as well, and it was really nice to be able to talk to them and also feel more sane. There were some interesting conversations, but I'll save those topics for another post.<br />
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I also spent a weekend with Rintu Basu and some other interesting and hypnotic people, and not long after I spent some tourist-watching with the mild-mannered Matt "the Tube" Crowley, who has recently moved back to Seattle.<br />
` Even just being around different people than I'm used to, especially ones who are helpful to my state of mind, seems to be helping to keep my brain in order.<br />
` That and poking holes in my assumptions -- a subject that Rob (the hypnotist of doom) talked about as the first caller on <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVsn8ha22cU">Stefan Molyneux's show here</a>. Interesting stuff.<br />
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It's taken me about two months to finish writing this post, and I was going to wait until I was able to upload some accompanying photos, but alas I must get back to writing about cannabis and finding another vehicle and place to live that's outside the asylum.</div>
Spoony Quinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10730057249256927206noreply@blogger.com2